Quote from: CRKrueger;907801As far as Martin goes, he stole from War of the Roses, Moorcock, sure, but let's not forget Dune.  The noble lord gets pulled into a political trap he can't avoid surrounded by enemies while his bastard son (or son that shouldn't have been conceived) is the Kwisatz Haderach/Azor Azhai the Prince that was Promised and said son's abilities only manifest after he dwells with the exiled Fremen/Wildlings and dies to be reborn...and don't forget the Otherworldly mother and magical little sister.

But then, like the point raised earlier about authors borrowing from the same historical sources, both Martin and Herbert may have been inspired by a common source. I'm sure if we look around, we could probably find an example of a tense political situation with threat of open conflict and a messianic figure of hidden royal heritage who dies to be reborn.

Quote from: talysman;907886But then, like the point raised earlier about authors borrowing from the same historical sources, both Martin and Herbert may have been inspired by a common source. I'm sure if we look around, we could probably find an example of a tense political situation with threat of open conflict and a messianic figure of hidden royal heritage who dies to be reborn.

Y'all know Paul Atreides is Muhammad, right?

Quote from: tenbonesGeorge doesn't hide *any* of his influences. He's pretty candid about them. I find the use of saying he's "stealing" from history rather silly in light of that fact. But GoT is damned good character-writing, plot be damned. He deserves the praise he's earned.

If you never read anything but fantasy, maybe.  But there are a lot of very good historical fiction - or just fiction - writers out there, and he's a big fish in a small genre pond.  I say he's stealing from history because he's not really doing much with his material, he's just sanding off the identifiable bits and plunking them in front of the reader.  That's just lazy writing.  David Duncan, by comparison, starts with young Henry VIII but then goes off in a very interesting direction with the King's Blades series.

Slightly off topic:

Quote from: tenbones;907881I would amend this to: "Martin's only crime here is his execution of his reinvention is excellent, and it has made him ridiculously popular."

And for reasons, I don't quite get. As people pointed he's not the first author do that, and do that very well.  And yet, he's the only one who broke mainstream.  Why?

But then I have the same issue with Harry Potter, there's absolutely nothing original in the series of books that hasn't been done before, and some of them are MUCH better written, and yet, super popular!

What is it about them that hits the public in the way that made them popular?

My personal theory is timing, but I have no proof of this.

I think of Harry Potter or, for that matter, GoT as a fads. Fads seldom make much sense, to wit, Pet Rocks.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;907901And for reasons, I don't quite get.

There are allot factors. Marketing and just dumb luck like timing play a part as well as other things.

But there's no accounting for tastes. Just because I think X is "much better written" than Y doesn't mean allot people are going to agree with me or even if they that I am objectively correct. Some things are going to click with more people, they just strike a chord other works don't even if they're considered better even technically better. Many people don't read for technical expertise or prowess. They consume things they like. It can even change over time. Some writers that were the equivalent of hacks in their own time are considered masters now. We might be very surprised at whats on the "classics" list in a couple of centuries.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;907901But then I have the same issue with Harry Potter, there's absolutely nothing original in the series of books that hasn't been done before, and some of them are MUCH better written, and yet, super popular!

What is it about them that hits the public in the way that made them popular?

I'll be bloody, bold and resolute and take a stab at this.

To some extent it's a positive feedback loop.  Once it gets popular it's going to get more popular because people want to be on the bandwagon.  There's certainly an element of faddishness to this.

Second, fantasy as mainstream was primed by the zeitgeist.  Geek culture was mainstreaming already by the end of the 90's, and children's fantasy has always been much more popular than adult fantasy.  The early Harry Potter books are just slightly magicified British boarding school fiction, which has been popular for British kids since forever.  Add to that that Harry is both a male Cinderella and a cipher - he has no real personality or initiative - and you have a main character that appeals to both boys and girls and who any reader can project themselves on to.  I could get sociological and point out that a) there are no permanent strong positive male role models in the Harry Potter books and 2) they hit at a time when children being raised by single mothers was an exploding phenomenon meant kids were going to empathize even more with Harry's life, but I'm sure some fedora-wearing hipster will lose his shit if I do, so I'll move on.

As for GoT, that's easy.  Nobody read the books initially except fantasy readers already.  The initial popularity there comes from the fact that the fantasy genre has had its snout up Tolkien's Mirkwood for thirty years and hasn't had an original idea in that long. Pace the other thread, real history may not be as gameable, but it's sure as hell more interesting than fantasy.  Martin tapped into that by reskinning the War of the Roses.  HBO optioned GoT because it was cheap and had lots of sex and violence and Lord of the Rings made a shit ton of money.  Martin would still be editing Wild Card anthologies if LotR hadn't been filmed.

So yeah, it's timing, in the sense that a lot of things happened at once to make a market for That Kind of Thing.  Same thing for The Hunger Games and all its imitators.

Hey!  I... like fedoras. And slouch hats, the Shadow looks pretty cool...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]248[/ATTACH]...yes he does.

Martin's stuff works for the same reason the original Star Wars works: he stole from a LOT of sources that his readers/viewers would find familiar and then stitched tjem together into a seamless whole that has it's own definite feel. Same with Harry Potter for the most part although I don't know that series well enough to comment really.

Why similar things don't work is:
-Not stealing broadly enough. For the King's Blades books (which I love) the first is mostly Henry VIII and then you get some Shakespeare later. Not quite "a fairy tale Western about samurais riding hot rods fighting Roman Nazis in Casa Blanca Flash Gordonland."
-Not stitching the parts together well. Star Wars, Matin and Harry Potter all have a definite feel where all the stuff they've stolen comes together. Other stuff can feel a lot more clumsy or the expys too blatant for the book/movie to feel like its own thing.
-Stealing stuff that's too obscure: if nobody knows what you're stealing it won't resonate with readers.

Quote from: Daztur;907946-Not stealing broadly enough. For the King's Blades books (which I love) the first is mostly Henry VIII and then you get some Shakespeare later. Not quite "a fairy tale Western about samurais riding hot rods fighting Roman Nazis in Casa Blanca Flash Gordonland."

You missed the WWII movies.

Quote-Stealing stuff that's too obscure: if nobody knows what you're stealing it won't resonate with readers.

The overwhelming majority of people I know who watch/read GoT have no idea what the War of the Roses or Hadrian's Wall is.

Quote from: Nexus;907803Haters gonna hate.

I don't want to see him Shake It Off. :eek:

Quote from: daniel_ream;907953You missed the WWII movies.



The overwhelming majority of people I know who watch/read GoT have no idea what the War of the Roses or Hadrian's Wall is.

Didn't miss WW II, I mentioned Nazis. I guess I should have included them flying Zeroes.

For ASoIaF I bet a whole lot of the people the books were first a hit among knew what Hadrian's Wall is and recognized the more historical fiction novel style of the plotting even if the didn't know about Edward IV.

Also Martin steals SO much (the Marx Brothers kidnap Tyrion for fuck's sake) that you're going to have stuff that feels familiar no matter what and having people get the general feeling rather than the specific details works to make it feel familiar but also its own thing, much like Star Wars.

For the TV probably a different set of factors made it popular but it did a great job of adding fantasy to HBO-style drama in a way that was very calculated to not turn off people who don't like fantasy. I remember a lot of the season 1 marketing emphasizing everything but the show's fantasy elements.

Quote from: Daztur;907957Didn't miss WW II, I mentioned Nazis. I guess I should have included them flying Zeroes.

Doesn't really go far enough.  ANH is Dam Busters, ESB is Stalingrad, ROTJ is Midway.

QuoteFor ASoIaF I bet a whole lot of the people the books were first a hit among knew what Hadrian's Wall is and recognized the more historical fiction novel style of the plotting even if the didn't know about Edward IV.

This has not been my experience, either for the initial fantasy book release or for the TV show.

For that matter, most people who think they're the shit don't recognize the things Robert Jordan or Elizabeth Moon are stealing, and they're stealing far more current and popular things.

QuoteFor the TV probably a different set of factors made it popular but it did a great job of adding fantasy to HBO-style drama in a way that was very calculated to not turn off people who don't like fantasy. I remember a lot of the season 1 marketing emphasizing everything but the show's fantasy elements.

We're in the midst of a boom in medieval TV generally right now.  The Tudors, Reign, The White Queen, both Borgias, Pillars of the Earth, etc.  I'd be inclined to bet this is due to LotR breaking through and the fact that a lot of fantastic elements are still a bridge too far for most mainstream viewers.  We've also had a boom in medieval fantasy TV but it's sank like a stone leaving nary a ripple.

I also know several GoT TV fans who stopped watching around the second season as the fantasy elements ramped up and they realized that there was no point in emotionally investing in any of the characters.

Quote from: daniel_ream;907953You missed the WWII movies.



The overwhelming majority of people I know who watch/read GoT have no idea what the War of the Roses or Hadrian's Wall is.

Tits always win.

Quote from: daniel_ream;908043We're in the midst of a boom in medieval TV generally right now.  The Tudors, Reign, The White Queen, both Borgias, Pillars of the Earth, etc.  I'd be inclined to bet this is due to LotR breaking through and the fact that a lot of fantastic elements are still a bridge too far for most mainstream viewers.  We've also had a boom in medieval fantasy TV but it's sank like a stone leaving nary a ripple.

I think Hollywood also primed the pump with Braveheart, Gladiator, et al.

Quote from: daniel_ream;908043I also know several GoT TV fans who stopped watching around the second season as the fantasy elements ramped up and they realized that there was no point in emotionally investing in any of the characters.

Eh, people who say that are whiny little bitches.  It's not that there's no point in emotionally investing, it's that bad things could happen "OH NOES!!!!111!!" and they're even afraid of the fainting couch now it seems.

Don't get me wrong, Martin's laid it on thick, but GoT is nothing compared to real life.  Tirion, Jon, Daenarys, Arya, Sansa, Bran - there's still a ton of people to root for, and lots of players still on the table from the very first book.