To quote my youngest sister, "most people are booger-eating morons."

That's her professional opinion as a marriage and family therapist, by the way.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;906758To quote my youngest sister, "most people are booger-eating morons."

That's her professional opinion as a marriage and family therapist, by the way.

The point that I'm trying to articulate, and probably not very well at that, is that I think that you'll have no problems with the game - it's fine. Depending on your game group, the culture may be an issue - but then, it was historically when Westerners arrived in the Middle Ages.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906760The point that I'm trying to articulate, and probably not very well at that, is that I think that you'll have no problems with the game - it's fine. Depending on your game group, the culture may be an issue - but then, it was historically when Westerners arrived in the Middle Ages.

Well, if/when I use it, it literally will be "players travel from D&D Europe to D&D India," so the cultural disjoint will be okay.  I'm probably going to get "Spears of Dawn" too, so that when they travel to D&D Africa I can have something more than extras from a Johnny Weismeuller movie.

Essentially I'm looking for "Quick Guide to X for role playing games".  Yes, there are these lovely things called libraries, but time and energy are more limited than they used to be 35 years ago.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;906803Well, if/when I use it, it literally will be "players travel from D&D Europe to D&D India," so the cultural disjoint will be okay.  I'm probably going to get "Spears of Dawn" too, so that when they travel to D&D Africa I can have something more than extras from a Johnny Weismeuller movie.

Essentially I'm looking for "Quick Guide to X for role playing games".  Yes, there are these lovely things called libraries, but time and energy are more limited than they used to be 35 years ago.

Understood. From that perspective, "Arrows" is the better publication; the RPG in it is also very solid. I have "Spears", and it has a little less on the local cultures and a little more on the RPG side; nothing that can't be easily dealt with. Personally, I would love to see the 'domain game' with the D&D Zulu regiments giving the annoying tourists what-for. I also have "Heirs To The Lost World", which you can borrow if your players get blown off course. And please do remind them that they should not book passage with that kindly grandfather type who says he's an 'honest merchant seaman'; that way lies madness!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906716I understand that, Pundit. What I'm referring to is what you just said: "like they never heard of the place or something." Your game is complete in and of itself, and is very playable. The issue that I see 'on the ground' is that the vast majority of American gamers are pretty much unaware of anything outside what they see and can touch in their little portion of the universe; to be fair, most Americans are equally as unaware or anything outside our borders either. Quite a few Americans are surprised to learn that the vast region to the north of us is actually a foreign country.

And while we do have more then a few people living here who are from that portion of the globe that your game describes, their culture is just as alien to the vast majority of Americans as yours is. Phil ran into the same issue, not just with Tekumel, but with South Asia in general.

I like your game, Pundit. I could run it in my sleep. The problems I've had with getting players is that it's too alien a setting for the people I talk to at the FLGS; they just can't get their heads around all the bizarre religions and goofy names. Tain't about your game - remember, I did buy a copy because I liked it - it's about the culture. Gronan could run it with no problems; the people he games with actually know what Asia is, and what that big lumpy bit sticking out of the bottom is. (The lamb vindaloo yesterday was exquisite, but I digress.)

The FLGS and most game conventions I've been to over the years are full of the illiterate and the ignorant. If it ain't the latest mass market thing, they have no idea what it might be. You, Pundit, and the people on this forum have multiple brain cells that rub together on a regular basis; the vast majority of people I see, out in the field, simply don't. The contrast between the people I was talking about gaming and games with yesterday and today was like the difference between day and night. And that profoundly saddens me...

Maybe I grossly underestimated the level of ignorance of the average American gamer, but somehow I don't think so. In Arrows of Indra, what you need to know beforehand is only that there's a place that exists called India, and the most basic facts (lots of gods, curries, saris, sitar music, etc).  I mean, what you're saying would make sense to me if there are gamers that have LITERALLY ZERO knowledge about India, like they literally do not know India exists. If a gamer shows up who knows literally absolutely nothing at all about India whatsoever, he might have some problems.

But FFS, if he knows even the most stereotypical knowledge of India from watching Temple of Doom, Apu on the Simpsons, etc. that should be enough that with the material in AoI he would be familiar enough to not have a problem playing in the setting.

And part of my point is that Epic India is not an alien planet. At the end of the day, most of the stuff you would do in the Bharata Kingdoms is the same stuff as you would do in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms or Westeros or whatever.  I don't get why people think that because it's a non-western culture that means what you'll go around doing is going to be enormously different.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;906725I have to agree with Chirine on this one. I also bought Arrows of Indra, and as a long time Tekumel player I think it's really good. I could easily run a campaign with these rules, whether it's set in mythical India or Tekumel. The problem, however, is that it is too exotic for most players. Give them the old Orc and Elves campaign world and they are in their glory. Give them Ssu, or Nagas and they're lost. Too bad really.

Shemek.

This seems insane to me, because I went OUT OF MY WAY to make it as close to regular D&D play as possible.
I don't really accept the argument.  You're telling me that D&D players are fine with Thri-Kreen in Dark Sun or Draconians or whatever, but a Gandharva (which, as I pointed out, is just a kind of ELF, indian version) is a motherfucking bridge too far that makes play impossible and the setting incomprehensible?!

Sorry, but I think that at that point, you might need to be investigating whether the problem isn't really with a mental block people are putting in their heads about non-western cultures (as if Athas or Krynn were really 'western culture').

Nagas, at least, shouldn't thrown anyone for a loop... they're pretty common stuff in fantasy these days. World of Warcraft has them as a major enemy faction, they're also a faction in L5R, and there are some great big budget Asian fantasy films about them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;907122Sorry, but I think that at that point, you might need to be investigating whether the problem isn't really with a mental block people are putting in their heads about non-western cultures (as if Athas or Krynn were really 'western culture').

I think this may be a big part of it, and also a lot of people really just don't like anything unfamiliar.

Plus, most people are booger-eating morons.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907146I think this may be a big part of it, and also a lot of people really just don't like anything unfamiliar.

Plus, most people are booger-eating morons.

Yeah. Well, that's why I keep trying to emphasize that people can play a Bharata Kingdoms campaign in the same way as they play any other D&D campaign.  The heroic roots are much the same.  Of course, an experienced GM can add more elements of Indian myth, culture, however much they want, but there's no reason that's a requirement!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907146I think this may be a big part of it, and also a lot of people really just don't like anything unfamiliar.

Plus, most people are booger-eating morons.

This, exactly. Indian/SE Asian culture is outside of the norm for most North Americans, IMO. This is at the root of the problem. The fact that Dark Sun, or what not, is just as, or in fact more exotic is incidental.
Many people will see AoI, and be either uninterested or intimidated and pass by. I don't know why. Maybe the names and concepts are just too unusual. They can't relate to it I guess. I just don't know.

Shemek.

Quote from: RPGPundit;907122This seems insane to me, because I went OUT OF MY WAY to make it as close to regular D&D play as possible.
I don't really accept the argument.  You're telling me that D&D players are fine with Thri-Kreen in Dark Sun or Draconians or whatever, but a Gandharva (which, as I pointed out, is just a kind of ELF, indian version) is a motherfucking bridge too far that makes play impossible and the setting incomprehensible?!

Sorry, but I think that at that point, you might need to be investigating whether the problem isn't really with a mental block people are putting in their heads about non-western cultures (as if Athas or Krynn were really 'western culture').

Well, there's this saying along the lines that you can bring a horse to the water, but can't force him to drink, or something.

Frankly I see nothing wrong with the fact that people prefer Darksun over hindu-based setting. Or more precisely nothing surprising. Heck, I traveled through Asia, stayed in India for a while, and I'm probably the only male fan of Bollywood movies (also Kolly- and Tolly- FTW) you know, but I wouldn't really pick India-based/inspired setting over simple, plain, "Forgotten Realms"-like fantasy, not to mention Darksun, which is friggin' awesome.

Quote from: yosemitemike;906728I don't know much about India and Indian mythology but I'm not that damn ignorant.  I know who Chandragupta was and have heard of and read a little of the Upanishads anyway.

I have never found Americans to be as comically ignorant as they are made out to be and I grew up in a farm town.  Maybe it's because I live in California.

Its not limited to calli there are very well read people all over the country there are also morons.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906743I agree with you - you do know about the subject, enough to recognize what you're looking at.

You may have smarter people out there on the West Coast - at least, more aware of other cultures. Here in 'fly-over' land; it's very different once you get away from the big urban areas (central Minneapolis and St. Paul). I'm basing my remarks on direct observations of my co-workers and the gamers I see at the various local game shops.

I disagree as i sayed in my above post there are well read people all over the country.
Even here in no where Wisconsin.
In my honest experience the ''dumb country people stereotype" is so over represented and believed that it is pathetic.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906760The point that I'm trying to articulate, and probably not very well at that, is that I think that you'll have no problems with the game - it's fine. Depending on your game group, the culture may be an issue - but then, it was historically when Westerners arrived in the Middle Ages.

Thats part of it the other thing is that in my experience India gets less attention then other country's so peoples back round knowledge is less.

Quote from: kosmos1214;907605In my honest experience the ''dumb country people stereotype" is so over represented and believed that it is pathetic.

In proportion to "dumb city people" it certainly is.
A lot of people just seem to be fine and dandy in their familiar rut. Happier than I am with life in general probably.

I suspect that most people don't play games to think.
Using an unfamiliar setting sets the expectation that they will need to think about the impact of the setting on their play.
Why spend the effort when there are so many other options?
=

Quote from: Simlasa;907652In proportion to "dumb city people" it certainly is.
A lot of people just seem to be fine and dandy in their familiar rut. Happier than I am with life in general probably.

Ill go with that it sounds about right.

Quote from: Greentongue;907759I suspect that most people don't play games to think.
Using an unfamiliar setting sets the expectation that they will need to think about the impact of the setting on their play.
Why spend the effort when there are so many other options?
=

You might be on to something here.
Though iv always been in groups that very much did think about the situation we where in and what are best course of action. ect. ect .