Quote from: finarvyn;905360What annoyed me about PF is that the GM's in the store I frequent were telling new players not to buy product off of the shelf but to get the free downloads off of the internet. If you are going to play in a store, you ought to support that store.

That's weird that Pathfinder annoyed you because of low-life players who steal.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905364That's weird that Pathfinder annoyed you because of low-life players who steal.

It's not really stealing.  The guys were running games/GMing at a FLGS and instead of showing new players the books (which would make them seem like good people, help the store, and make them seem like members of the community), they said "Yeah you can get this stuff for free".  I mean, you can do both.

Quote from: finarvyn;905360I don't play PF but a guy in the game store explained to me that the whole PF product line may have ruined itself when they came out with some sort of revised classes book. Every revised version of the class is, as I understand it, much better than the original and thus the originals don't get played much anymore in campaigns that allow this particular rulebook.

Pathfinder Unchained had "unchained" versions of Rogue, Barbarian, and Summoner (not core).

Core rogue was a wet noodle, so it needed a little love.
Unchained Barbarian seems aimed more at playability and easing the "rage, get cut up, then die" syndrome of barbarians, not just a power-up.

They do a pretty decent job in balancing their new classes against the old (much better than Wizards did during the 3.5 era). My only complaint is that I am not a big fan of new class books as a major product line, and Paizo has gone a little down that rabbit hole (but again, in a more constructive manner than the cluster that was Wizards during the 3.5 era.)

Quote from: finarvyn;905360What annoyed me about PF is that the GM's in the store I frequent were telling new players not to buy product off of the shelf but to get the free downloads off of the internet. If you are going to play in a store, you ought to support that store.

That seems pretty dumb. Not that the FLGSes locally stock a lot of Pathfinder books. But Pathfinder minis seem to make pretty brisk sales, even among the 5e crowd.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;905366Pathfinder Unchained had "unchained" versions of Rogue, Barbarian, and Summoner (not core).

Core rogue was a wet noodle, so it needed a little love.
Unchained Barbarian seems aimed more at playability and easing the "rage, get cut up, then die" syndrome of barbarians, not just a power-up.

I'm guessing he was referring to the Advanced Class Guide, which had "hybrid" classes such as the arcanist, combining the abilities of a wizard and a sorcerer.

After the Core book, the Advanced Player's Guide is the most useful. It's the first PF book with newly designed classes and a bunch of new rules, like Archetypes. If the Core book is a rehash of 3.5, then the APG begins demonstrating what the Paizo team can do with an "old and dated" system.

The Advanced Race Guide is also pretty cool, especially for player-side crunch. It has a race builder section which is surprisingly accurate. We used that system for building alien races in a d20 Star Wars game.

The NPC Codex is one book that I find extremely valuable. It has statted NPCs of every class from the Core book (plus NPC and Prestige classes) at 1-20 levels. As a GM, it's super helpful, but as a player, I've used it to reverse-engineer certain builds. Helps to identify useful Feats and their chains, and spell arrays. This book would be great even if you were running 3.5, since WOTC never came out with a useful NPC book.

After the Core book, the Advanced Player's Guide is the most useful. It's the first PF book with newly designed classes and a bunch of new rules, like Archetypes. If the Core book is a rehash of 3.5, then the APG begins demonstrating what the Paizo team can do with an "old and dated" system.

The Advanced Race Guide is also pretty cool, especially for player-side crunch. It has a race builder section which is surprisingly accurate. We used that system for building alien races in a d20 Star Wars game.

The NPC Codex is one book that I find extremely valuable. It has statted NPCs of every class from the Core book (plus NPC and Prestige classes) at 1-20 levels. As a GM, it's super helpful, but as a player, I've used it to reverse-engineer certain builds. Helps to identify useful Feats and their chains, and spell arrays. This book would be great even if you were running 3.5, since WOTC never came out with a useful NPC book.

Quote from: Alzrius;905376I'm guessing he was referring to the Advanced Class Guide, which had "hybrid" classes such as the arcanist, combining the abilities of a wizard and a sorcerer.

If so, it's fallacious. Again with the exception of where the rogue is considered (Slayer), the book is fairly well balanced against the core, with a few corner case exceptions (one archetype seems to draw disdain on the Paizo forums for being a path to a "strictly better wizard").

Quote from: Crüesader;905365It's not really stealing.  The guys were running games/GMing at a FLGS and instead of showing new players the books (which would make them seem like good people, help the store, and make them seem like members of the community), they said "Yeah you can get this stuff for free".  I mean, you can do both.

Agreed it's not really stealing. If a rpg company is going to give their rules away for free online on a SRD. As much as I want to support a gaming store. I'm going to use the SRD and recommend others to do the same. That's why I like and both dsilike the SRD. I like it because it's free and they put everything online. I dislike it because between the choice of spending money on books or getting it for free. Which one is going to be more popular. The free option imo.

The Rogue in the Advanced Class Guide is vastly better than the core. It's what the Rogue should have been from the start. I'm actually seeing players taking Rogues. Or asking to switch to it. Usually players would take one level of Rogue than Bard. Or the Archeologist Archetype or similar one that allowed trapfinding. Monk received a small fix and still is problamtic imo.

Quote from: Nexus;905299That's one of the reasons I'm a Hero System fan. (I keed, I keed)

The other being that it will stop a rifle bullet.

Quote from: sureshot;905399Which one is going to be more popular. The free option imo.

SRDs don't feature images and don't look that well on your bookshelf, unless you're one of those DIY masters who produce Nceronomicon-level books in their spare time.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf

vs

Quote from: JesterRaiin;905410SRDs don't feature images and don't look that well on your bookshelf, unless you're one of those DIY masters who produce Nceronomicon-level books in their spare time.

Agree for a few other reasons.
I've never had a book run out of battery power.
I often read RPG books (among other books) in bed before dropping off to sleep. I wouldn't find it as convenient with a tablet or laptop.
I also find it easier at the gaming table to flip through a physical book than to page through a pdf or online webpage.
I'll get a PDF when it's cheaper, but if it's a game I'm seriously going to play, I'll also/instead get a hardcopy.

As I said I prefer print so I'm in agreement with you both.

Though if a gamer has money troubles or simply not willing to spend the money on a print book. It's kind of a hard sell to tell him to buy it at a game store. When one can get all the information for free on the online SRD. Or a cheaper price on Amazon.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;905364That's weird that Pathfinder annoyed you because of low-life players who steal.

hog wash balder dash and poppy cock the kind of people who say using a free version that the company gives away freely is stealing are the same kind of morons who try and tell you buying a used copy is stealing.
 because they didnt get there cut.
and its bull shit thats business.

Quote from: sureshot;905399Agreed it's not really stealing. If a rpg company is going to give their rules away for free online on a SRD. As much as I want to support a gaming store. I'm going to use the SRD and recommend others to do the same. That's why I like and both dsilike the SRD. I like it because it's free and they put everything online. I dislike it because between the choice of spending money on books or getting it for free. Which one is going to be more popular. The free option imo.

funny i still buy gaming books and im a poor son of a bitch

Quote from: kosmos1214;905437hog wash balder dash and poppy cock the kind of peaple who say using a free version that the company gives away freely is stealing are the same kind of morons who try and tell you buying a used copy is stealing.
 because they didnt get there cut.
and its bull shit thats business.

... He didn't say it was stealing. He said it was bullshit to use a store's facilities but not give them money.

Someone else suggested that it might be stealing.

Did you quote the wrong thing?

Edit: This post made sense made sense earlier.