I'm sorry; I guess I'm just stupid. I was under the impression that if somebody had something I wanted, if I offered them money they'd sell it to me. If they didn't, then they would not get my money. I don't spend a lot of money on the hobby because there is very little out there that I want; when I do find something, like the 'Temple of Set' figures from Dark Fable, then I'll spend. Otherwise, not.

Quote from: Spinachcat;897007BTW, the most valuable part of the ENworld post was mentioning that 2 gaming dudes need some medical help.

Charles Wright of Frog God Games
https://www.gofundme.com/29e76zrf

Loren Wiseman of Traveller fame
https://www.youcaring.com/loren-k-wiseman-495303

Agreed!!!

I have some thoughts on the article but now it is sadly not the time for posting it (work is waiting for me) but I have read a most excellent post from Kevin Crawford that I will shamelessly copy there :

Originally post on Enworld by Kevin Crawford :

" These are just a few observations from an RPG publisher who is earning a very livable wage from his work.

The market doesn't care. It is theoretically possible to bend the market by positioning your good as a virtue signal, as in "fair trade" coffee, but I'd put the odds of the RPG industry being able to pull of something like that at slim to none. It's also theoretically possible to bend the market by developing a personal brand that makes individual buyers more willing to pay extra because they like you, personally, but this is not a solution that generalizes to a market. Publishers are most likely to see a return on efforts made to deal with the market as they find it or to build the kind of personal branding that fuels successful Kickstarters, where it's relatively easy to price discriminate.

You write for the market. 350+ page full-color books on shiny paper are lovely things, but if the market isn't paying for them, I don't write them. There's a reason that Sine Nomine core books top out under 250 pages, and that's because I can't get paid for an extra hundred or two hundred or four hundred pages between the same covers. I can move a 200-page b/w book for $39.99 with no fuss, or $19.99 in PDF, so that's what I write. I'm experimenting with color for my next core book, and if it pays off I'll repeat it and if it doesn't I won't.

The marginal dollar is not always worth it. The vast majority of small RPG publishers are one-man shops. There is no earthly reason why these people should be trying to get into FLGS distribution. I get about $20 on a b/w hardback sold for $39.99 through DTRPG. If I tried to move that hardback through conventional retail, I'd be lucky to get 3 or 4 dollars after the distributor wet their beak and the retailer took the standard discounts. I could get a better margin if I committed to a print run, but any print run of less than 5,000 copies or so has minimal economies of scale, and small pub RPGs do not sell 5,000 paper copies as a general rule. Chasing this marginal dollar would expose me to significant risk in overprinting, warehousing fees, and hours of my precious time spent managing the process. I focus my efforts on skimming the cream of the market, the dollars that are easy to get with minimal risk.

There is no money for subcontracting. Hope you like doing layout, because you will be if you want to make money. It is extremely difficult to get a positive return on investment by paying for various book design services. It's hard enough to get a positive ROI on art, let alone on somebody who knows not to indent the first paragraph after a head. A publisher needs to be able to write, edit, and do layout at a minimum, and do these things well enough that they'll satisfy the basic standards of the market. None of it will be done as well as it would by a specialist, but the publisher will keep the money, and keeping the money is a mandatory first step to profit.

The small-pub RPG market likes small bites. The magnum opus core book is a spectacular thing, no doubt, with 600+ pages of glorious full-color abundance, but it is also fabulously expensive to print and produce. A steady stream of low-production-cost items over the course of the same time span is much more digestible to the market, and much more likely to pick up impulse buys. This is especially the case when you're offering your entire back catalog on a platform like DTRPG, where an enthusiastic whale who likes your latest product can go back and just scoop up everything else in one place.

There is money in small-pub RPGs, but it's not necessarily in the RPGs that publishers would like to print or the RPGs that the loudest customers say they'd like to see. If your goal is to make money doing this sort of thing, you have to accommodate your publishing to what the market is actually buying, and that sometimes means suffering through formats or production cost limits that are not very fun to abide. "

As an aside, I should unfollowed this Helton dude on G + or learn to ironicaly enjoy his posts.

Quote from: Spinachcat;897007BTW, the most valuable part of the ENworld post was mentioning that 2 gaming dudes need some medical help.

Charles Wright of Frog God Games
https://www.gofundme.com/29e76zrf

Loren Wiseman of Traveller fame
https://www.youcaring.com/loren-k-wiseman-495303

Yeah, that is very important. If you have enjoyed their work, you should donate ( I have).

Is it just me, or has anyone else gotten their hackles up that this Helton asshole in the article is just using these two guys who are in need of help as an anecdote to stage his desire to get money he has not earned?

Quote from: yabaziou;897010I have some thoughts on the article but now it is sadly not the time for posting it (work is waiting for me) but I have read a most excellent post from Kevin Crawford that I will shamelessly copy there :

Originally post on Enworld by Kevin Crawford :

" These are just a few observations from an RPG publisher who is earning a very livable wage from his work.

The market doesn't care. It is theoretically possible to bend the market by positioning your good as a virtue signal, as in "fair trade" coffee, but I'd put the odds of the RPG industry being able to pull of something like that at slim to none. It's also theoretically possible to bend the market by developing a personal brand that makes individual buyers more willing to pay extra because they like you, personally, but this is not a solution that generalizes to a market. Publishers are most likely to see a return on efforts made to deal with the market as they find it or to build the kind of personal branding that fuels successful Kickstarters, where it's relatively easy to price discriminate.

You write for the market. 350+ page full-color books on shiny paper are lovely things, but if the market isn't paying for them, I don't write them. There's a reason that Sine Nomine core books top out under 250 pages, and that's because I can't get paid for an extra hundred or two hundred or four hundred pages between the same covers. I can move a 200-page b/w book for $39.99 with no fuss, or $19.99 in PDF, so that's what I write. I'm experimenting with color for my next core book, and if it pays off I'll repeat it and if it doesn't I won't.

The marginal dollar is not always worth it. The vast majority of small RPG publishers are one-man shops. There is no earthly reason why these people should be trying to get into FLGS distribution. I get about $20 on a b/w hardback sold for $39.99 through DTRPG. If I tried to move that hardback through conventional retail, I'd be lucky to get 3 or 4 dollars after the distributor wet their beak and the retailer took the standard discounts. I could get a better margin if I committed to a print run, but any print run of less than 5,000 copies or so has minimal economies of scale, and small pub RPGs do not sell 5,000 paper copies as a general rule. Chasing this marginal dollar would expose me to significant risk in overprinting, warehousing fees, and hours of my precious time spent managing the process. I focus my efforts on skimming the cream of the market, the dollars that are easy to get with minimal risk.

There is no money for subcontracting. Hope you like doing layout, because you will be if you want to make money. It is extremely difficult to get a positive return on investment by paying for various book design services. It's hard enough to get a positive ROI on art, let alone on somebody who knows not to indent the first paragraph after a head. A publisher needs to be able to write, edit, and do layout at a minimum, and do these things well enough that they'll satisfy the basic standards of the market. None of it will be done as well as it would by a specialist, but the publisher will keep the money, and keeping the money is a mandatory first step to profit.

The small-pub RPG market likes small bites. The magnum opus core book is a spectacular thing, no doubt, with 600+ pages of glorious full-color abundance, but it is also fabulously expensive to print and produce. A steady stream of low-production-cost items over the course of the same time span is much more digestible to the market, and much more likely to pick up impulse buys. This is especially the case when you're offering your entire back catalog on a platform like DTRPG, where an enthusiastic whale who likes your latest product can go back and just scoop up everything else in one place.

There is money in small-pub RPGs, but it's not necessarily in the RPGs that publishers would like to print or the RPGs that the loudest customers say they'd like to see. If your goal is to make money doing this sort of thing, you have to accommodate your publishing to what the market is actually buying, and that sometimes means suffering through formats or production cost limits that are not very fun to abide. "

As an aside, I should unfollowed this Helton dude on G + or learn to ironicaly enjoy his posts.

Gimme a link to Crawford's excellent post so I can XP him!

The world doesn't owe you a living - even if you're an RPG writer. Especially if you're an RPG writer doing something because it's fun. If you're good enough you'll make money, whether your stuff is cheap & weird like Venger Satanis, or glossy and professional like Sasquatch Game Studio (Primeval Thule). If you're not good enough then you won't.

Theres been simmilar pushes over in the board gaming and game art biz.

Game designers demanding they be payed those juicy 10% royalties NOW. And then flipping their wheels when kindly told that most of the guys getting a big royalty got to that point by proving they were good designers and gradually wrangling better deals. Entry level designers are a risk and sometimes the publisher has to fisnish the game for them. One guy was all but in tears trying to convince everyone how it was the designers right to get payed top dollar right out the gate.

Another was calling for all designers to demand to be payed per word. And we pointed out that in general in gaming the goal is less. Not more. He didnt take that well either. Hell. I had a publisher try to pull that on me.

Then theres the artists demanding to be payed by the hour, rather than the quality of the work or the speed they can get a large batch of pieces done. Or done at all. They want to be payed the same as the top end artists right out the gate.

At least once a year someone shows up with another grand plan which invariably translates to "I want to be payed the same as the superstars without doing the footwork."

Also not helped by the fact so many designers have no clue as to the costs of game production. Why some Crowdfunding games fail after being funded. The designer never thought of the actual production.

I love how this guy and a few other writers are bitching about how they "deserve a living wage" even if they're living their "dream job".

What none of them want to seem to address is that our hobby is niche. It's the cold hard truth of the matter, this hobby is a place for a labor of love. Yes some people can make some good cash off of it, but those are the minority. You don't "deserve" money even if you spent an assload of your own time and cash making a product....You want to start rolling in the dough? Make the next 7th Sea, Dungeons and Dragons, or Vampire..

If you can't do that, then you need to realize you're working in a niche hobby with a saturated market. This is how supply and demand fucking works. If I think your product is worth 60 bucks I'll pay it....If I think it's not worth my time, I'm not going to buy it...I've written for the RPG industry as well, and while I do demand to be paid for my work, I also understand the reality of this hobby and made sure not to quit my day job.

This Chris Helton guy seems stuck in the past. He's talking about freelancing and print, when gaming is moving toward digital, POD, self-publishing, and crowdfunding. As Kevin Crawford says, there's money to be made as a self-publisher if you're canny.

Most of his post seems to be a whine. "Why can't I make a living doing what I love?" Well, Chris, there're lots of people in the world who have to work doing something other than what they love because doing what they love doesn't pay. The majority of musicians and artists. Semi-professional and amateur sportsmen. As Kevin Crawford points out, Mr Helton has not built up enough recognition to get the (big) money.

As for gamers being cheap, I don't accept that. I have spent an enormous amount on games. However, that has been to lots of different companies not to just one. And there's the rub, my gaming pound is being spread thinly because there is a lot of stuff out there.

I will defer to your experience on the 'always' part, but the post you linked to is steeped in Millennial-age Blue Team dog whistles. "Living wage" is the big one. "Living the dream" is another.  This is just typical wish fulfillment fantasy angry that utopia has yet to arrive. "Why do I have to be subject to market forces? Don't I DESERVE to live my part of the American Dream, like you guys promised?"

Fortunately the market always wins in cases like these, and this type of complaint is largely moot.

Quote from: S'mon;897019Gimme a link to Crawford's excellent post so I can XP him!

The world doesn't owe you a living - even if you're an RPG writer. Especially if you're an RPG writer doing something because it's fun. If you're good enough you'll make money, whether your stuff is cheap & weird like Venger Satanis, or glossy and professional like Sasquatch Game Studio (Primeval Thule). If you're not good enough then you won't.

That is a fair request so I will try to answer it : http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3410-Why-We-Need-To-Pay-What-Games-Are-Worth-Not-What-We-Think-They-Should-Cost&page=10#comments

In the case this link is not good, Kevin Crawford's post (under the username CardinalXimenes) is on the 10th page in the comment section.

Quote from: Orphan81;897024I love how this guy and a few other writers are bitching about how they "deserve a living wage" even if they're living their "dream job".

What none of them want to seem to address is that our hobby is niche. It's the cold hard truth of the matter, this hobby is a place for a labor of love. Yes some people can make some good cash off of it, but those are the minority. You don't "deserve" money even if you spent an assload of your own time and cash making a product....You want to start rolling in the dough? Make the next 7th Sea, Dungeons and Dragons, or Vampire..

If you can't do that, then you need to realize you're working in a niche hobby with a saturated market. This is how supply and demand fucking works. If I think your product is worth 60 bucks I'll pay it....If I think it's not worth my time, I'm not going to buy it...I've written for the RPG industry as well, and while I do demand to be paid for my work, I also understand the reality of this hobby and made sure not to quit my day job.

A living wage?  I hear California just kicked the minimum wage up to $15 bucks.  They can go work at McDonalds.

The fact of the matter is, no one is entitled to your money.  We buy the products that interest us when we can afford to do so.  And aren't most RPG authors freelancers anyway?  I know some do it full time as a living, but I imagine most have a primary form of employment, and game design is more of a side show.

Nothing is stopping them from pricing shit the way they think it should be priced. If they price themselves right out of the market, that's their problem.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;897008I'm sorry; I guess I'm just stupid. I was under the impression that if somebody had something I wanted, if I offered them money they'd sell it to me. If they didn't, then they would not get my money. I don't spend a lot of money on the hobby because there is very little out there that I want; when I do find something, like the 'Temple of Set' figures from Dark Fable, then I'll spend. Otherwise, not.

Yep.  With the proviso that I will decide how MUCH money I wish to offer.  It's not that I CAN'T afford the PCRS covered hoppers at $65 each, it's that the product isn't worth $65 to me.  Obviously, since they keep producing them, they're worth the money to somebody else, so good on 'em.

Quote from: Orphan81;897024If you can't do that, then you need to realize you're working in a niche hobby with a saturated market. This is how supply and demand fucking works. If I think your product is worth 60 bucks I'll pay it....If I think it's not worth my time, I'm not going to buy it...I've written for the RPG industry as well, and while I do demand to be paid for my work, I also understand the reality of this hobby and made sure not to quit my day job.

THIS!  This this this this fucking this.

It ain't 1981 any more, boys and girls.  And it's no accident that some of the surviving old time luminaries like Jim Ward and Frank Mentzer have gotten back into gaming AFTER retirement from their job that actually supported them for the last thirty years.

NICHE HOBBY WITH A SATURATED MARKET!  DO YOU UNDERSTAND, MOTHERFUCKER?

Quote from: AaronBrown99;896974My problem is the "people deserve..." idea.

You deserve nothing. You are entitled to nothing. If you can fulfill some need, perform some service that others are willing to pay for, good for you.

But no one owes you anything. Learn that lesson, and spare the rest of us your entitled, self-indulgent whining.

Soundly worded. I'm so sick of hearing/reading about a "living wage", too. Guess what? If your "dream job" can't pay your bills and allow you to save for the future, too fucking bad. Too many people buy so much of what they don't need and go into stupid debt (how's that $80,000 Existential Gender degree helping your career, buddy?) and live beyond their means without saving, then complain that they can't get ahead.

Sickness and injury sucks, I know. Hospital bills rack up fast. Prepare, as much as you can. You can't control the universe and truly terrible, unforeseen things happen. However, you can do something more than sit on your ass whining that being mediocre in a niché hobby doesn't pay enough.

If you really want to live the dream, create something amazing and use the money and time wisely. John Harper Kickstartered Blades in the Dark and humbly thanked his backers for funding him to the point he can work on the game full-time. He's been communicating regularly, both on the KS and Google+ community and, more importantly, has released enough of the game that you can play it as intended. The book's delayed because it's grown into so much more and he's creating more great stuff than he originally planned, much of it due to player feedback. As far as I'm concerned, he's earned that money, even if it is a KS.

Look at Monte Cook. Like them or not, Numenera, The Strange and the Cypher System lines are killing it. Are they worth the hundreds of thousands he's made? It would seem so because every KS he's done has been wildly successful. This includes his family friendy, No Thank You, Evil! RPG.

Look at Modiphius? Chris Birch seems to be doing very well and his company made something that was so well-received, it allowed him to expand. Like, you know, every business ever.

The guy who wrote that article...who's name I've already forgotten...needs to sack up and create something great enough to give him a "living wage".

Or KS Exalted.