I considered making a retroclone once upon a time, but now I think it would be more prudent to mashup Monsterhearts, Monster of the Week and Urban Shadows. People play World of Darkness for the extensive background, so the only way to compete would be to write your own extensive background a la Witchcraft and Everlasting regardless of which rule system you pick. Those games are IMO mechanically superior to World of Darkness and have more positive and creative communities.

Quote from: Snowman0147;889432One of the best books to happen.  It started my path to the asset mechanic with the merit hacks.  Does a good job in replacing all those merits and made things less broken.

Well I think that's the main issue of all these wod topics lately. Do you want a game that focuses on it's themes and supports those with a setting and rules? Or do you want a game that let the players decide what they want and the game facilitates those choices with rules and setting hacks? I am in favor of the latter, although I find Unisystem or Savage Worlds easier to adapt to my taste than WoD. In a way Mirrors is good, but it is a little too complicated for my taste in providing rules for stuff I don't need rules for. The shards are interesting and imo better than the ones provided in Danse Macabre, where everything goes through the covenant mold.

Storyteller system, in all the variations I've seen, is far too loose to do the vigorous math gymnastics it seems to want to sell. You don't buy it for a hard math chassis like HERO or GURPS. You buy it for the setting, nebulous mechanics, flashy exception-based design widgets, and easy-to-pitch-to-newbies bucket of flavor mechanics (like Astrology or Animal Ken).

If you "grew out" of nebulous mechanics in a loose Storytelling world then you "outgrew" White Wolf in its entirety. It's not "serious math-faptonium" gaming, for good and for ill. Grab any other more rigorous chassis, slap on monster of the week machanics, and best of luck converting the latent fanbase (who are often all White Wolf devotees and terrified of any and all math-like things).

Or you can embrace the crazy for what it is... :idunno:

Yeah I will give up on this and let it die.

Quote from: Opaopajr;889895If you "grew out" of nebulous mechanics in a loose Storytelling world then you "outgrew" White Wolf in its entirety. It's not "serious math-faptonium" gaming, for good and for ill. Grab any other more rigorous chassis, slap on monster of the week machanics, and best of luck converting the latent fanbase (who are often all White Wolf devotees and terrified of any and all math-like things).

Or you can embrace the crazy for what it is... :idunno:

I never liked rules-heavy rpg's. Too much dice rolling, slowing everything down. It's not the system that's bothering me, although I do prefer something without a dice pool.

It's the settings. For example Vampire has always been about "Vampire" and not about vampires, if you understand what I mean. If you would ask a nWoD Requiem GM what his setting is like the answer is always something like "The Invictus is forming an alliance with the Ordo Dracul after a coup against the Carthians who ruled the city for a century ..." and then I mentally switch off.

I like Unisystem better for example, because those games ask what you want and then try to facilitate that type of setting and that type of playstyle. No judgment. You can do tense survival horror or pulpy action and you can switch up the setting as well.

Btw, I just found out After the Vampire Wars is out in bookform. Still waiting for the pdf though, but it looks interesting.

Yeah, White Wolf prided itself on being setting jargon heavy at the expense of fresh blood. Which is a pity because a lot of *could* be simplified into easier to grok premises. Not so confident about nWoD, as the differences between sect & clan was more baroque shoe pissing contests from my quick scan.

But for example, Anarchs v.:
- Cam - Young Turks trying to modernize decayed Ottoman Empire to survive modernity.
- Sabbat - Young Turks trying to avoid colonizatio by rampaging Russian communists and their doomsday cult fixation.
- Laibon/Quincunx/Thunder Courts - Post-colonialism from different sides of the colonies; spoiled Western children with 1st world problems vs. old hegemonies recovering from disarray.
- Anarchs - the thousand protests bloom, and are becoming vulnerable to bigger hegemons.

In many ways, as jargon heavy oWoD was, its oft criticized clan and sect simplifications (stereotypes) helped pitch premises faster. Here come the Assamites... oh, terrorism. Here come the Followers of Set... oh, dens of iniquity. Here come the Lasombra... oh, ruthless bossy perfectionists. It was easier to translate the old stuff into plain speak; the newer stuff was harder for me.

It sounds like you want smaller stakes to feel what it is like to be vampiric, though, than be thrust into the politics prematurely. I thought that was nWoD's selling point, but alas... I think it is doable in any version, but I think you gotta dump the names and powers and just focus on the day to day grind of it. Like make them work for every hunt and ghoul, just so it stands out more

Quote from: Opaopajr;890016Yeah, White Wolf prided itself on being setting jargon heavy at the expense of fresh blood.

That's one for the WTF? box.

Quote from: Opaopajr;890016It sounds like you want smaller stakes to feel what it is like to be vampiric, though, than be thrust into the politics prematurely. I thought that was nWoD's selling point, but alas... I think it is doable in any version, but I think you gotta dump the names and powers and just focus on the day to day grind of it. Like make them work for every hunt and ghoul, just so it stands out more

Nah, what I meant was most WoD games seem to be really about all the political moving and shaking, almost to the point that's the only thing happening in the game and everything else around it simply doesn't exist anymore. Instead I prefer a setting where a million things are happening and you just have to single out one thing you like. If you want to go relic hunting, investigating haunted houses or fighting monsters in the sewers, it's all up to you. Want shifters in your game? Go ahead. Want vampires cursed? Fine. Want them victims of a virus? Fine too.

Ahh, you wanted to play the splats together! In a sandbox!

Oh that's very much not what Storyteller can do, regardless of how tempting it was. Outside of conversion notes for every other splat line, the different monsters did not play well together at all, IME. That's a totally different game experience than WW exception-based design can handle -- again, better with a more universal system like GURPS or maybe CJ Carella's Witchcraft.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;890005(...) Btw, I just found out After the Vampire Wars is out in bookform. Still waiting for the pdf though, but it looks interesting.

The default setting is much like True Blood, from what I read. If that's your thing and you enjoy BRP, it's probably a viable alternative to WoD.

Quote from: Opaopajr;890165Ahh, you wanted to play the splats together! In a sandbox!

Oh that's very much not what Storyteller can do, regardless of how tempting it was. Outside of conversion notes for every other splat line, the different monsters did not play well together at all, IME. That's a totally different game experience than WW exception-based design can handle -- again, better with a more universal system like GURPS or maybe CJ Carella's Witchcraft.

Witchcraft indeed.

Although even a single monster line can be good, but it has to offer more of a sandbox style of play. I still feel limited in my options when I read vampire. A vampire or a werewolf game can be good, but it will have to offer more variation. More options for playing it as gritty or as pulpy as you want. Options for different playstyles like politics, exploration, investigation or combat. Different setting options. Options for scale. All in one book.

Recently I am using a homebrew WoD setting with the players being cops investigating supernatural mysteries. It's fun but I need the WoD core, the Book of Spirits (for spirits and the Shadow), Second Sight (for cults and low magic), Tales of the 13th Precinct (cops) and possibly Hunter the Vigil for some factions and the rules to create all other monsters. I can do more or less the same with the Savage Worlds game the Thin Blue Line, which does all that in 150 pages and has a city setting as well.

In other words I want something more broad. WoD handles everything with a  lot of depth, which leads to a lot of essay-style written books about one subject. They are really good at that. But that stuff isn't adding much to my games.

Edit: So a sandox indeed, but not necessarily all the splats together.

Quote from: 3rik;890286The default setting is much like True Blood, from what I read. If that's your thing and you enjoy BRP, it's probably a viable alternative to WoD.

Yeah the Masquerade is over if that's what you mean. I hope there aren't any cheesy sex scenes in it as well.

Something interesting I noticed in W:tF is that many first tongue words violate Sumerian phonology and phonotactics. It is clear the writers had no knowledge of Sumerian or what an actual precursor language would logically look like.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;890348Yeah the Masquerade is over if that's what you mean. I hope there aren't any cheesy sex scenes in it as well.

From what I read some Masquerade LARPs were all about that.

Boy that True Blood series was silly. I still can't believe people actually enjoyed that shit. :idunno:

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;890407Something interesting I noticed in W:tF is that many first tongue words violate Sumerian phonology and phonotactics. It is clear the writers had no knowledge of Sumerian or what an actual precursor language would logically look like.

Maybe they went for more guttural sounds better suited for the canine-like larynx and vocal tract of the Dalu and Gauru forms?