Yes:-)

Quote from: Settembrini;887992In a way all games are basically D&D, in another way there is no real D&D, except in Gary's home campaign. Ah wait, maybe only Dave Arneson's home campaign was real D&D?

I disagree in theory with that. If Gary and Dave were creating something exclusively for their own tables, then yes, they would be able to define what is and isn't truly D&D. D&D is published art, however (writing being an art form in this perspective). Much like once you publish visual art, it becomes beholden to the audience to say whether it is good, once you publish a game, it becomes the purchasing audience's right and burden to say what is iconic about it. It is the thousands of gaming tables that picked up D&D and played it that made D&D the phenomenon that it is. If there was some secret nuances at Gary and Dave's tables that only they and their players know about, that's cool, but it doesn't make it the one and only real D&D.

Quote from: Settembrini;887992In a way all games are basically D&D, in another way there is no real D&D, except in Gary's home campaign. Ah wait, maybe only Dave Arneson's home campaign was real D&D?

The first part is a thought I've had before:  in a broad sense it's all D&D.  Rolemaster, Runequest, any and all of the retro- and neo-clones... except for the trademark they're still playing in the D&D sandbox.  It's not until relatively recently that we've gotten some truly novel game systems and experiences.  Just to pick one I've played, you can't say that Fiasco is just D&D in drag, for instance, although I enjoyed it on it's own terms.

I'm not sure where to come down on the OP's question though.

Quote from: tenbones;887888With all the countless debates about editions and RPG theory/wankery, and system hackery... do you all think D&D is more about being it's own genre all by itself? Or is it really about the system?

If I did Greyhawk using Savage World's Fantasy (or whatever hack you wanted) - would it stop being D&D?

Could you create a classless D&D d20 game, purely skill-based, using the standard D&D stats, with Feats and Vancian spellcasting - would it not be D&D to you?

Most chuckleheads hear "D&D" when "RPG" is spoken. So it is a tough question in a way.

Quote from: tenbones;887888With all the countless debates about editions and RPG theory/wankery, and system hackery... do you all think D&D is more about being it's own genre all by itself? Or is it really about the system?

It's both. It's a system that, when played in certain ways that the system (inadvertently) suggests by making them easier, produces the D&D genre.
People that like the genre, are bound to like the system more. Those that like the more traditional fantasy genres, aren't going to like it without serious modifications (cue DCC, Scarlet Heroes and Godbound).

Yes, I know you can use it for lots of stuff. But keep in mind that a non-insignificant part of it being tied to a genre is due to the fact that it was most commonly played in a given way.
If that doesn't prove to you that the rules do suggest this way of playing it, although it might not be what they were originally trying to suggest, your "save vs. believing" is probably dangerously low:p.

QuoteIf I did Greyhawk using Savage World's Fantasy (or whatever hack you wanted) - would it stop being D&D?

...well, duh. Of course it's going to be Savage Worlds Greyhawk!

QuoteCould you create a classless D&D d20 game, purely skill-based, using the standard D&D stats, with Feats and Vancian spellcasting - would it not be D&D to you?

Apart from the flippant answers, check Godbounds:D!

Quote from: Bilharzia;888018To me d&d was always a peculiar American take on fantasy, the renaissance fair of rpgs, like it had been put together by a middle aged accountant from the mid-west. Other systems (even from the US) for whatever reason didn't seem as morbidly parochial. I can't separate the system and the settings, or the approach to the setting.

Yeah, that's more or less true:).

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;888042Most chuckleheads hear "D&D" when "RPG" is spoken. So it is a tough question in a way.

Solution: don't account for the opinions of chuckleheads, they've got nothing of value to contribute anyway:D!

Quote from: cranebump;888030Yes:-)

"I will bend like a reed in the wind."

Quote from: tenbones;888080"I will bend like a reed in the wind."

I'll also be having that cake I just ate.:-)

D&D is definitely a system, but it is also a kind of genre.  As a system, it is also a broad creative range of mechanics: for example, all the various OSR rule-sets are "D&D", system-wise.

That depends what point you are trying to make.

If you need to prove that D&D is a good fit with enough houserules for everything - it's a system.

If you need an explanation why D&D is totally 100% realistic and verisimilitudesque - it's a genre unto itself.

It's a genre, where everything is fantasy! Arrows don't kill, swords don't cut! Wearing a massive armor makes you hard to hit. Where you play a class, not a character (because unoptimized class is just wrong). Where playing a human race is just silly. Everything have levels!11 XD

Yeah, I hate it - sorry folks. It always puzzles me, when D&D players are raving about how simulationists they are.

But I respect D&D (and certainly do not disrespect the players), especially 5e. There is something magical in it. It is very solid for what it is. I even don't get upset, if we all call it the best fantasy RPG.

I like my D&D liiight - so I prefer Beyond the Wall.
I want my dungeons to be fantastical - I pick a scenario from DCC.
If I want to explore the character compositions with various classes, I take Shadow of the Demon Lord.

I have also wide range of other fantasy RPGs I like: RuneQuest 6, OQ, Symborium. I am also looking forward to the 2d20 Conan.

It's a system.

Without everyone agreeing to definitions of "genre" (good luck with that), I think we're suffering from lots of confusion about "who means what" in this thread.

Thus, we should use extra profanity.

If I had to pick a side, I'd say D&D is "a genre." It's all about its own tropes and assumptions.

I'd also argue D&D can't be "a system" since there have been at least 4 distinctly different systems sold under the name D&D.

But of course, I will be first to argue that D&D's "genre" tropes come from the system bits that most captured people's love and ire.

It's a floor wax AND a dessert topping.:-)

High-, Low-, and Mid- level D&D strike me as being different genres. And of course starting from level 1 and working your way up over the course of a long campaign allows you to traverse the different genres seamlessly.

I guess that makes D&D genre-fluid.

Quote from: Lunamancer;889678I guess that makes D&D genre-fluid.

Don't tell the Pseudo-Activists!