I don't find that the predefined setting makes much difference to how the system works.

Among *World games with detailed settings, I've played Sagas of the Icelanders and Night Witches. The latter in particular has a highly detailed and specific setting - a particular historical regiment and time. But there are always lots details to be filled in.

By comparison, Monsterhearts, Monster of the Week and Apocalypse World were very loose setting.

Okay, the notion that the referee using their own setting makes players 'reticent' to use something the referee 'crapped out of their head' is now going to make me cry so hard I puke.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;886336It sounds like you want to ask if people who have played, and didn't like, an AW hack game where they participated in world building, would they have liked it better if they hadn't had to participate in world building?

Actually, that's the one thing I REALLY HATED about Dungeon World.

"What is the hierarchy of the Paladins of St. Cuthbert?"
"I don't know, what IS the hierarchy of the Paladins of St. Cuthbert?"
"FUCK YOU, YOU ASSMONKEY, YOU'RE THE MOTHERFUCKING REFEREE!!!"

If I'm not the ref, I do not WANT to have to invent the fucking world.

I get all the worldbuilding I can handle when I'm the GM.  When I'm playing, I'll build the world the way my character does, with his sword and his wits.

What the hell is the point of declaring as a player that the Silken Veil has the best wenches in town?  Hoo boy, that was interesting...not.

Take the tour and find out for yourself where the best ones are, one wench at a time, the way Crom intended.

So much energy thrown into different ways to stuff non-roleplaying into Roleplaying Games.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886388Actually, that's the one thing I REALLY HATED about Dungeon World.

"What is the hierarchy of the Paladins of St. Cuthbert?"
"I don't know, what IS the hierarchy of the Paladins of St. Cuthbert?"
"FUCK YOU, YOU ASSMONKEY, YOU'RE THE MOTHERFUCKING REFEREE!!!"

If I'm not the ref, I do not WANT to have to invent the fucking world.

I largely agree.  I kinda don't mind that in one shots that aren't set in some pre-defined setting, but don't care for it otherwise.

For me, this is like forcing a player to speak in first person with a "fantasy" accent. Know your players and don't force it on them if it's not their bag. It's certainly not integral to playing Dungeon World.

"What is the hierarchy of the Paladins of St. Cuthbert?"
"I don't know, what IS the hierarchy of the Paladins of St. Cuthbert?"
"Bow down before your God!"
"..."
"If you don't like my answers, stop asking me to do your fuckng job."

Yeah, some players have some cool ideas to offer, so having a platform to open up player creativity is fine. Does Dungeon World make the GM ask the player every time?

There are times when I flat out tell players things along those lines, usually because I have not given it much thought and if they are interested in the world that their character interacts with, I have no qualms about asking for player input.
To me, that's a perk, and if I know a player is not into that kind of creative control, I'm more than happy to fill in the gaps on the fly.

I'm curious how hardcore the "world building" on the player side gets with predefined settings.

Quote from: RosenMcStern;886298Sagas of the Icelanders has an established settings: Iceland as portrayed in the myth (I will not call it Mythic Iceland because that is the title of my friend Pedro's RPG book about Iceland). And it is a good AW hack.

Then your friend deserve all the praise. We used Mythic Iceland as background fro our Sagas game. The book is fantastic.

Quotehave always wondered how Sagas would fare if transported to Glorantha, with a Sartarite clan instead of an Icelandic one. In this case, the "build the setting from scratch" refers only to "build the clan from scratch", that is an interactive discovery of the character's specific relationship with the world, not the world itself. This is not incompatible with traditional gaming style, IMHO. You would usually work out with the GM the details of your clain at the start of any game including barbarian characters. Here, the rules are there to guide this process that is mostly freeform in more traditional games.

Our last Sagas game played out exactly as a King of Dragon Pass (the Glorantha videogame) playthrough. Some players that didn't know Sagas yet got surprised by the resemblance (even calling Tyr Lankhor Mhy and Frey Barntar in some ocasions ). So yeah, I think your theory is sound

I really like * World games, so I don't know if I'm the target of the OP's question.

What I can say, is that I prefer games with a defined setting. I doesn't have to be much, (I hate settings with an excess in details, I like to improvise stuff), but as a GM I like to know where my feet stand.

For example, tremulus builds a nice mechanical framework to tell Lovecraftian stories, but also includes a random generator to design your own town filled with plots, which is quite cool to start a game and see where it goes. I can work with that.

There are some established setting books for Dungeon World out there. Plague of Storms, Something Stirs in the Blackscale Brakes, A Sundered World, and The Last Days of Angelkite are all ones I'd recommend.

In my experience playing DW, the advantage of going fully improv is to 1) give the players a sense of buy-in to the world, and 2) avoid the temptation to steer the action towards a preferred resolution. Published settings give you a more defined starting point and structure, if that's what you're comfortable with. So go for it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886388Actually, that's the one thing I REALLY HATED about Dungeon World.

"What is the hierarchy of the Paladins of St. Cuthbert?"
"I don't know, what IS the hierarchy of the Paladins of St. Cuthbert?"
"FUCK YOU, YOU ASSMONKEY, YOU'RE THE MOTHERFUCKING REFEREE!!!"

If I'm not the ref, I do not WANT to have to invent the fucking world.

But that's not a universal trait.  World creation can be a shared task; it can happen outside of the game, or inside it.  All this shit is a spectrum, rather than a flat out yes or no proposition.  

Sometimes it's just a matter of letting the people with the coolest idea's idea be the one that sticks.  We were playing Dungeon-World, and the GM was running a Thieves' World knock-off, and the issue of a Mage's Guild came up.  He hadn't planned on the Mage's Guild being a detailed part of the setting, so all he had was this idea that there was a Mage's Guild.  When the GM turned the question to us, "Okay, there's a Mage's Guild, what's it like?" we batted ideas around for three minutes and came up with something far cooler than if he'd just had to make shit up on the spot and we ended up doggedly pursuing that thread.  It worked real well for us.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;886295My point of view: I can only say, that I don't like *.World games very much. I find no fun in "building from the scratch", perpetual defining some elements I usually expect to be already established, so if I'm welcomed to play a game and there's a setting included, I find it quite helpful.

I'm pretty much exactly the opposite. I really enjoy building custom game worlds. Don't get me wrong, I also like running games where a setting is included... Just a few worth mentioning here... Judges Guild Wilderlands Campaign Setting, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Lost star clusters, or star spiral arms in Traveller, like that. I run games and even campaigns in published game worlds, but prefer running homebrew campaigns even more.

I really like including stuff no one else has in their games. Completely new monsters, unique NPCs, unique challenges and traps, new treasures and artifacts... Like that.

It takes plenty of skill as a GM to present a coherent chaotic game world in just the right style, to keep players interested in playing, and to have fun, all while they are learning about new techniques and opportunities for mayhem.

I enjoy having players take an active role in shaping their game world.

Setting up a stronghold, for example, to protect one of their trade caravans.

Stealing a stronghold from an existing group of NPC pirates, thieves, or rogues...

Building an Inn and staffing it, so that they can have a supplementary income, instead of having to trudge to the nearest dungeon, and kill all the critters inside, wash, rinse, and repeat ad nauseam... boring.

Much better to let the players be creative. GIve them opportunities to build a ship, buy one, or steal one. Then run an adventure on that.

No need to have everything all pre-printed or stated out. It is ok though, to build a short encounter list.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;886445But that's not a universal trait.  World creation can be a shared task; it can happen outside of the game, or inside it.  All this shit is a spectrum, rather than a flat out yes or no proposition.

Well, sure.  That's why I said "I do not want" rather than "nobody wants".

Quote from: Future Villain Band;886445But that's not a universal trait.  World creation can be a shared task; it can happen outside of the game, or inside it.  All this shit is a spectrum, rather than a flat out yes or no proposition.  

Sometimes it's just a matter of letting the people with the coolest idea's idea be the one that sticks.  We were playing Dungeon-World, and the GM was running a Thieves' World knock-off, and the issue of a Mage's Guild came up.  He hadn't planned on the Mage's Guild being a detailed part of the setting, so all he had was this idea that there was a Mage's Guild.  When the GM turned the question to us, "Okay, there's a Mage's Guild, what's it like?" we batted ideas around for three minutes and came up with something far cooler than if he'd just had to make shit up on the spot and we ended up doggedly pursuing that thread.  It worked real well for us.

Personally I don't like that sort of thing because I like observing the environment, gathering clues about it and then figuring out how to use what I know to my advantage. I can't really do that in this kind of Shroedinger's Setting.

Drove me nuts in Burning Wheel.

Quote from: CRKrueger;886390I get all the worldbuilding I can handle when I'm the GM.  When I'm playing, I'll build the world the way my character does, with his sword and his wits.

But how did you get this sword of yours ? A family relic passed down generations ? A prize from the nether plane ? A fragment of a god fingernail ? And how important is it for you ? Does it have a personality of it's own ? Does it fuel you with bloodlust ? Or perhaps it just reminds you of your dear father ?

And your wits, how did you get it ? From the savage lands where the witless are the breakfest of wild beasts ? From the maquiavelic politics of a shadowy guild you grew up in ? Or perhaps that story the elders say about some spark of avatarhood inside you has some truth to it ?

Are you SURE you don't want to add some neat and fun details like that to our world ? Oh come on, it's just in this first session. After that I promise you will REALLY have to put sword and wits to use if you want to know more.

What happened before the game starts is irrelevant.  Show, don't tell.