QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D

I keep bringing this up, and no one seems to be listening.

The distinction between "narrative game" and "traditional game" is pointless and abstract, meaning different things to different people.

I am listening, and I don't agree.

...and we wonder why this horse won't die.

The argument of total subjectivity in game experience just does not hold water.  

There is variation in the terms "narrative game" and "traditional game" and the borders between the two are sometimes fuzzy, but they are not meaningless categories that are 100% subjective.  Outside stimuli objectively influences experience.  Eating a chocolate produces a different experience than driving a nail through your thumb.  There is a subjective element to those experiences but it is pointless to argue that they are completely subjective.

Is the experience of playing an RPG any different to you than the experience of playing a board game or miniatures war game? Is the experience of playing monopoly any different than than the experience playing D&D?

If so, why? What defines the experience of playing an RPG?

If not, why do you bother designing RPGs and why do we bother playing them?

Now, some people prefer monopoly to D&D, but that is a different argument than saying D&D and monopoly are the same and that it's only our internal experience that makes them different.

QuoteHexes/grids, combat rounds, experience points, leveling up, etc. are all weird abstractions that have nothing to do with anything actually imagined in a game world, yet are as equally abstract as are fortune points, gm resources, or momentum-style mechanics.

(emphasis mine) - they are not equally abstract.  There are layers of abstraction.  Rolling a die to hit represents a simple cause effect relationship in the imaginary world so translating from real world (rolling a die) to imaginary world (running an opponent through with a sword) is minimally disruptive to the imaginary experience.  Spending momentum from a saved pool or purchasing doom points has no simple cause effect relationship in the imaginary world, and using those mechanics requires several additional cognitive steps (layers of abstraction) such as answering the question why did I just now learn how to swim and why does the universe want to backlash against it.

QuoteIf you're judging games by these categories, what do you mean by them, and why is this distinction so important to you?

Fair question.

For me, and for anybody I have ever gamed with, there are qualities that make RPGs different, and in some ways superior to other games.  The essence oft hose qualities boils down to experiencing a shared imaginary world through the eyes of an imaginary character.  

I'm not a nut-case as Edwards would have it.  We crack jokes, eat snacks, reflect on the imaginary world OoC, and sometimes play parts of the game OoC as well.  But the goal of playing an RPG is to share an imaginary world and to experience it.

For me, mechanics with fewer levels of abstraction are better at this.  When a game regularly forces me out of imaginary experience then it suffers as an RPG because it distracts me from what I want to accomplish and from what I consider to be the essence of an RPG.  

I admit that this is a preference in play style (subjective), but the game design and mechanics are objectively more or less immersive and therefore more traditional or more narrative (or whatever).  The categories are real.  

I am not going to stamp 2d20 Conan with a label, but large parts of the game mechanics are non-immersive and non-traditional requiring OoC decisions that break the experience of the shared imagination.


Anyway.  I am not attacking here.  I am over it.  But the dead horse keeps coming back.

Quote from: Jason D;885890Please explain to me how dice, character sheets, experience points, character classes, hit points, saving throws, and gamemasters represent in-world cause and effect.

Oh snap!

Jason D, I may not eventually enjoy 2D20, but you're ability to both pimp Conan and engage actively and honestly in this thread has really impressed me. Most RPG designers would have fled days ago.

I'm totally looking forward to you writing a real RPG!

Quote from: Akrasia;885939So "Conan with D&D" is very much the point of C&T!

Somebody please start a Crypts & Things thread.

I want to hear more. Also, I want to hear comparisons / contrasts to that Astonishing Swordsman game too.

Quote from: Akrasia;885940The entire catalogue of the previous Conan RPG was too good a deal to not take.

If I read PDFs (I find that I glance at them, then forget them), I would probably be backing the KS as well.

I have an unread gig of RPG PDFs sitting on laptop and even a "Must Read" folder that I haven't opened in two years.

Quote from: Jason D;885908Hexes/grids, combat rounds, experience points, leveling up, etc. are all weird abstractions that have nothing to do with anything actually imagined in a game world, yet are as equally abstract as are fortune points, gm resources, or momentum-style mechanics.

There is a huge difference between those two groups. It's about whether or not the characters in the world can conceve of and talk about the concept and/or relationship.
Traditonal game = everything has an in-world foorprint perceivable and discussable by characters in the world. (All decisions are character facing)
Narrative game = there are mechanics, player/GM resources, etc. that have no in-world footprint and that characters in-world would have no way of perceiving. (Some decisions are player facing)

Hexes/grids = Actual visible distance to the characters
combat rounds = the perceivable passage of time
experience points = Characters can perceive their own experiences, naturally.
leveling up = That one person is more powerful than another is a concept in-world.

Whereas fortune points, gm resources, momentum-style mechanics, etc. are only perceivable as concepts to in-world characters in certain cases.

If it is established that "luck" actually exists as a force in the game universe, then fortune points could be talked about in the sense of "running out of luck," etc.

GM resources, momentum-style mechanics are not impossible to give an in-world footprint to, but they are a bit harder.

Lemme see if I can't come up with a way to turn the momentum/doom mechanic in Conan into a traditional mechanic.

Let's determine that the meta-physical nature of the Conan universe is such that there exists an all-encompassing evil force called "Dark Karma."

All living beings can feel its omnious, malicient presence, and are able to access the power of this "Dark Karma" by "opening their hearts" to it.

If a living being opens their heart to the Dark Karma, they can use its power to propel their abilities to sorcerous levels (more dice), but once you bring the Dark Karma into your life it leaves a residual power shadow that follows you around and tries to destroy you (Doom).

The scholars of the world have long known about this relationship, and people regularly discuss "opening their heart to the Dark Karma" and the "Doom" accompanying it.

In addition to this Dark Karma, there also exist minor meta-physical powers of good. They are nearly non-sentient, but they are aware enough to perceive the existance of living beings, and they want to aid living beings in their struggle against the Dark Karma. Theses beings of good want to help everyone but their attention is limited. Their attention can be drawn by experiencing elation (succeeding well at a task), and when the beings notice you, they reward you will a limited, quickly-fading source of divine power (Momentum) that hovers around you like a cloud that can be felt and drawn upon by anyone in the vicinity by "opening their heart" to it, the same as with Dark Karma.

Wham Bam Bing! Now you have a traditional game!

Looking at my former examples through the lens of this new world view...

Quote from: Enlightened;885797When someone spends group momentum to succeed better at picking a lock, they are succeeding BECAUSE YOU SWUNG YOUR SWORD HARDER THAN NORMAL LAST ROUND (and banked the Momentum).

When he swung his sword well, he attracted the attention of the bengin entities who granted him divine power. I could feel this power in the area as I was trying to pick the lock. I opened my heart to it, and let it divinely empower my ablities.

All completely in-character, in-world.

Quote from: Enlightened;885797And when the GM spends Doom to let the picts gain initiative, they are going first BECAUSE YOU TRIED HARDER LAST ENCOUNTER (you bought dice with Doom).

Last combat, we opened our hearts widely to the Dark Karma, and created a think cloud of Doom that maliciously seeks our demise. This dark power infused some of itself into the picts to speed them up and enrage them in order to destroy us.

All completely in-character, in-world.

Heh, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but Conan 2d20 uses the same system that was developed for Mutant Chronicles 3.

In MC3, Doom is Dark Symmetry, a sentient Evil force, so using it to help you, yet give it strength, does give you that footprint.

The problem is, now taking that exact same mechanic and applying it to...
Howard's Hyborian Age, where there is no Dark Symmetry.
The setting of Infinity miniatures game, where there is no Dark Symmetry.
Burrough's John Carter of Mars, where there is no Dark Symmetry.

Now Heavy Metal, there it would have a footprint!

The only thing about Mutant Chronicles' Dark Symmetry-mechanic that makes it work as an actual Dark Symmetry-mechanic is that the rot pervades every aspect of the game:)

Quote from: Enlightened;885964Traditonal game = everything has an in-world foorprint perceivable and discussable by characters in the world. (All decisions are character facing)

Player character dialogue;

Zog "Let's go get them".
Yak "No, it's not worth it. Why risk injury or worse for just a couple of orcs".
Zog "Hey, I'm nearly 5th level. I need just 50 more experience points, and you know, pow! I'll be stronger and better. Soon as that orc's head hits the floor."
Yak "OK then."
The two doughty adventurers approach the orcs. Combat ensues.
Zog I attack! Now I'll wait for them to have their attack. C'mon Yak, get your attack in you sluggard. All finished? Good, now I'll attack again.
etc.

Quote from: CRKrueger;885995Heh, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but Conan 2d20 uses the same system that was developed for Mutant Chronicles 3.

In MC3, Doom is Dark Symmetry, a sentient Evil force, so using it to help you, yet give it strength, does give you that footprint.

No, I didn't know that. I've never seen the game.

My idea was just an extension of what those mechanics naturally imply about the meta-physics of the universe.

Quote from: Stainless;886001Player character dialogue;

Zog "Let's go get them".
Yak "No, it's not worth it. Why risk injury or worse for just a couple of orcs".
Zog "Hey, I'm nearly 5th level. I need just 50 more experience points, and you know, pow! I'll be stronger and better. Soon as that orc's head hits the floor."
Yak "OK then."
The two doughty adventurers approach the orcs. Combat ensues.
Zog I attack! Now I'll wait for them to have their attack. C'mon Yak, get your attack in you sluggard. All finished? Good, now I'll attack again.
etc.

The in-world footprint for "5th level" isn't "Hey, I'm 5th level." It's "I'm more/less powerful than X."

So it would be...

Zog "Let's go get them".
Yak "No, it's not worth it. Why risk injury or worse for just a couple of orcs".
Zog "It'll be good practice. It'll make us stronger and better. Soon as that orc's head hits the floor."
Yak "OK then."
The two doughty adventurers approach the orcs. Combat ensues.

The following part isn't how characters would perceive it:
Zog I attack! Now I'll wait for them to have their attack. C'mon Yak, get your attack in you sluggard. All finished? Good, now I'll attack again.
etc

The in-world footprint of "my turn/your turn" is just simply "everyone is active." It's abstract, but being abstract does not disqualify it from having an in-world footprint (e.g. the demostrative fact that I get to do something and he gets to do something.).

Quote from: Stainless;886001Player character dialogue;

Zog "Let's go get them".
Yak "No, it's not worth it. Why risk injury or worse for just a couple of orcs".
Zog "Hey, I'm nearly 5th level. I need just 50 more experience points, and you know, pow! I'll be stronger and better. Soon as that orc's head hits the floor."
Yak "OK then."
The two doughty adventurers approach the orcs. Combat ensues.
Zog I attack! Now I'll wait for them to have their attack. C'mon Yak, get your attack in you sluggard. All finished? Good, now I'll attack again.
etc.

You know there's a difference between choosing to make a decision based on that and having to make a decision based on that, right?

Quote from: CRKrueger;885945Depends on the implementation.  Usually no, but sometimes yes.

For example, in WFRP1 Fate was literally that.  There was a cosmic battle between the Chaos Gods and the Gods of the Old World and even though you were a Halfling Rat-Catcher, you were someone who was Fated to take place in that battle.  As a result, you had a Fate score, but those points could only be used to stop you from outright dying, that's it.  There was no choice for the player to make regarding them.

Some games have similar Luck mechanics that are a bit more active, in that they allow for rerolls.  Again, in some systems and settings, Luck or Karma is actually a *thing* in that setting that does have some footprint.

Fun fact, that means Tenra Bansho Zero is a completely in-universe game:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;886023Fun fact, that means Tenra Bansho Zero is a completely in-universe game:D!

Maybe, been a while since I've read the rules, not sure about the "I can't die" box.

Edit: I guess it's more of a "You now have permission to kill me." box.

Having played through the QuickStart and a bit more, I can say we really have taken a liking to the system. It played very fast, players had fun choices (so did the GM ), and it felt like we hoped it would.

I've got big hopes for this game!

Quote from: CRKrueger;885941It's kind of funny, RPGs with narrative mechanics are one of the only sold products where you see people claiming the selling points of their product don't exist or aren't relevant.

Out of curiosity, where have you seen me say either of those things?