Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885543I think, more than anything, Blade runner has had an influence on the popular presentation  of cyberpunk. probably followed by the matrix, and then anime like gits.

given how niche rpgs are, I wouldn't attribute popular conceptions of cyberpunk  directly to them.

Yes, but I wonder how much influence cyberpunk games have had on the authors of said works:D.
Besides, the influence of RPGs is overrated. There's seldom many people playing them at once, but there's plenty of people that played them once;).

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885543I think, more than anything, Blade runner has had an influence on the popular presentation  of cyberpunk. probably followed by the matrix, and then anime like gits.

given how niche rpgs are, I wouldn't attribute popular conceptions of cyberpunk  directly to them.

Akira colored my perception of Cyberpunk anime in terms of tone and style; there's precious little cyber-culture in the film (or the manga) beyond some high-tech in the background (the various computers used by the scientists in the first few chapters, for example; Kaneda's laser-rifle in later ones).

On the other end of the spectrum is Bubblegum Crash and Bubblegum Crisis, two OVAs that unashamedly draw their thematic inspiration from Bladerunner (right down to the idoru group the power-suit wearing team is named: Pris and the Replicants).

Live-action wise, Alien, Aliens and Outland are all heavily influential: their tech is worn, beaten, dirty and lived-in.  Gene Roddenberry never conceived of a universe where the government was utterly corrupt and working hand-in-glove with equally morally bankrupt companies to the detriment of society, but Dan O'Bannon, James Cameron and Peter Hyams certainly did.  I've wanted to run a Cyberpunk-set Outland campaign for a long time now.  It's got it all: corrupt cops, a corrupt corporation, synthetic super-drugs, grubby, worn-out, lived-in tech, all set on an airless moon half a billion miles from Earth...

Quote from: AsenRG;885555Yes, but I wonder how much influence cyberpunk games have had on the authors of said works:D.
Besides, the influence of RPGs is overrated. There's seldom many people playing them at once, but there's plenty of people that played them once;).

I wondered that too. It's hard to know for sure. Not that it couldn't be the case, but I'd be surprised that roleplayers would be over-represented in the field of script writers, directors, etc.

But thinking about  Pundit's comment more, I find that the most obvious influence from cyberpunk as a concept in films is the look of characters and locations, and the high-tech urban setting, which follows the Bladerunner template more than some of the literature or the rpgs. I don't see many movies that actually depict cyber modifications. Hardware does; Robocop for the titular character; the movie Nemesis; Johnny Mnemonic...and those are the only ones that come to mind right now. The corporate dystopian aspect you get fairly often, but it's not rare for that to be absent (Hardware hews closer to Mad Max in that respect. The Matrix doesn't really have a corporate dystopia, but it's closer to the Skynet scenario). You also get the cyborg/what-is-human thing once in a while too.  I'm not sure I'd chalk up Robocop's handling of that theme to Bladerunner, but I think you can safely chalk up GITS exploration of that theme to Bladerunner, IMO.

It's interesting that, in live action films, you don't often get virtual reality explored in the context of a global internet, as it's presented in the rpgs mentioned and in Gibson's  and Stephenson's stuff. Jhonny Mnemnonic is the only one that I've seen doing it; maybe The Matrix, though in a twisted way.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;885566Akira colored my perception of Cyberpunk anime in terms of tone and style; there's precious little cyber-culture in the film (or the manga) beyond some precious little high-tech in the background (the various computers used by the scientists in the first few chapters, for example; Kaneda's laser-rifle in later ones).

Yeah, but I'm more referring to the presentation of cyberpunk in media. I can't claim with certainty that Akira borrowed its urban look from Bladerunner, but I'd not be surprised if it did. I don't know what inspired the gang stuff.

Also, I think that the high-tech that exists in akira is pervasive. You've got stuff like the holographic ads, kaneda's bike, vehicles, and stuff. Not as much as in Bladerunner or BGC, but still different enough from our own tech level that you could call it near future.  

 

QuoteLive-action wise, Alien, Aliens and Outland are all heavily influential: their tech is worn, beaten, dirty and lived-in.  Gene Roddenberry never conceived of a universe where the government was utterly corrupt and working hand-in-glove with equally morally bankrupt companies to the detriment of society, but Dan O'Bannon, James Cameron and Peter Hyams certainly did.  I've wanted to run a Cyberpunk-set Outland campaign for a long time now.  It's got it all: corrupt cops, a corrupt corporation, synthetic super-drugs, grubby, worn-out, lived-in tech, all set on an airless moon half a billion miles from Earth...

I think that the tech in Alien is basically the same as in Bladerunner. It has the same retrofitted look, probably because they used the same props for both movies. Sometimes I fancy they are in the same universe and time line, but I'm not sure if Ridley has ever said anything about it.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885576I can't claim with certainty that Akira borrowed its urban look from Bladerunner, but I'd not be surprised if it did. I don't know what inspired the gang stuff.

Bosozoku, a Japanese motorcycle gang subculture. The Clowns fit right in, and are in fact pretty mild in comparison to other stuff that pops up.

To add what ArrozConLeche said (and I think you did a great job of summing up a lot of seminal cinematic representations) -

I'd also say there's a lot of fiction and movies based on that fiction that had an influence on the cyberpunk genre. I'd say that Anthony Burgess's book 'A Clockwork Orange' and Kubrick's (and in my opinion BETTER) movie version was an inspiration.

I'd even say "Escape from New York", "the Warriors" and "War Games" had an impact.

But to me - these things had an impact on the cultural consciousness. When Neuromancer dropped... it was like a bomb. Perfect book at the perfect time. It kicked down the doors of a post-Cold War near future that everyone could feel in their cynical guts (at least if you lived in the urban cities.) Then of course Bladerunner dropped... and there it was, fully visualized for the non-reading crowd alike.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;885598Bosozoku, a Japanese motorcycle gang subculture. The Clowns fit right in, and are in fact pretty mild in comparison to other stuff that pops up.

Yep. There's a yakuza gang-war brewing right now in fact.

Bosozoku are really low-end of the spectrum in Japanese organized crime in terms of influence, but definitely have their place in the discussion. It's a very cyberpunk entry point for gaming purposes too.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;885598Bosozoku, a Japanese motorcycle gang subculture. The Clowns fit right in, and are in fact pretty mild in comparison to other stuff that pops up.

Wow, cool! Are those sort of like the rice rocket version of the 1%'ers here?

Quote from: tenbones;885600To add what ArrozConLeche said (and I think you did a great job of summing up a lot of seminal cinematic representations) -

Cyberpunk is probably the only genre I've really wanted to explore in as a complete way as possible. Other than bad movies, of course, but that's not a genre.

QuoteI'd also say there's a lot of fiction and movies based on that fiction that had an influence on the cyberpunk genre. I'd say that Anthony Burgess's book 'A Clockwork Orange' and Kubrick's (and in my opinion BETTER) movie version was an inspiration.

I have not read the book, but the movie really had a cyberpunkish feel in vague ways.

QuoteI'd even say "Escape from New York", "the Warriors" and "War Games" had an impact.

Hell yeah. The Warriors and Streets of Fire have much of the cyberpunk neon drenched look down pat. The only thing that's missing is the technology, and a few other things.

I don't know if you remember 400 Boys in Mirrorshades, but the pictures I had in my mind when reading it were inevitably a lot like what I saw on The Warriors. I couldn't help it.

QuoteThen of course Bladerunner dropped... and there it was, fully visualized for the non-reading crowd alike.

(Not so) small quibble. I think Bladerunner was released before Neuromancer. Supposedly, Gibson left the theater in dispair when he saw the movie, prior to Neuromancer being published.

Blade Runner: 1982
Neuromancer: 1984

However, that said, both of them did have a powerful impact on a teen me. Along with... lots of movies from the early '80s.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603Wow, cool! Are those sort of like the rice rocket version of the 1%'ers here?

Not precisely, but I wouldn't argue that point. They tend to be a *lot* younger than your average 1%er.

They're like more gangbanger's that are closer to the street-racing scene here in America by analogy. Like you'll see an element of Crips and Bloods and Surenos/NorCals into street-racing, Bosuzoku are like those particular kinds of gangbangers. They do a lot of petty-crime etc. But those that get into heavier stuff, court the yaks and are often called upon by the yakuza until they can get "in" to do "stuff". It allows them to earn their place and show their bonafides. Some Bosuzoku are actually controlled by established yakuza groups. It's a stepping stone for a lot of the younger yaks. So not all bosuzoku are gangsters per se, in the organized crime sense. They're like one branch of the farming league.

Of course it's been years (read: decades)  since I was involved in anything associated to this stuff. I'm assuming little has changed. But I could be wrong. /hands you ten-cents covered with grains of salt.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603Cyberpunk is probably the only genre I've really wanted to explore in as a complete way as possible. Other than bad movies, of course, but that's not a genre.

I would say I was the same way... but I admit I felt that way about Lord of the Rings and Middle-Earth. But in the modern-sense I think cyberpunk made me want to rediscover not just the world IN the genre - but it made me reconsider what in happening around me.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603I have not read the book, but the movie really had a cyberpunkish feel in vague ways.

Oh it's very proto-cyberpunk. Embraces international influence not only in terms of the movie, but it assumes that street-culture itself would be forced to embrace foreign elements (in this case incorrectly - Russian. But chalk that up to cold-war consciousness at play). If you get past all the mod-influenced stuff trying to pass itself off as *futuristic!* - it's very much a lower-middle-class cyberpunkish future. Mind-control, free-will, sociopathy as defensible expression,  all the elements are there! Just no cyber.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603Hell yeah. The Warriors and Streets of Fire have much of the cyberpunk neon drenched look down pat. The only thing that's missing is the technology, and a few other things.

I still tink bottles at my kids, crooning "Warrrriors...." My and my friends dressed up like the Baseball Furies on more than one Halloween. Good times.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603I don't know if you remember 400 Boys in Mirrorshades, but the pictures I had in my mind when reading it were inevitably a lot like what I saw on The Warriors. I couldn't help it.

Good call!!!! That was a powerful image that now that you mention it, totally calls back to the Warriors. Growing up as a teen in Los Angeles during the 70's and through the 80's, I think this kinda stuff was always in my consciousness. The Warriors in particular was a powerful thing - even though we kinda laughed at the "50's" style portrayal of gangs. When it got to the parts with Cyrus and this unified gang-front - that was very much already in play with the Crips and Bloods where I grew up. And it whiffed very strongly of the potential dystopian urban-hellhole that the cyberpunk genre embraces. You see it very strongly in CP2020.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885603(Not so) small quibble. I think Bladerunner was released before Neuromancer. Supposedly, Gibson left the theater in dispair when he saw the movie, prior to Neuromancer being published.

You know, I heard this. I think Gibson was already done with the book when the movie launched, it just hadn't been published. What this says to me is that the cyberpunk consciousness was already simmering in the collective imagination. Scott and Gibson just took it over the boiling point into explosion-mode.

I would disagree with Pundit that CP2020/Shadowrun are the exemplars of the genre. I agree with others that say TTRPG's are too niche to take that kind of credit. Especially since in fiction and movie circles the genre is still very much alive, if not, more evolved than CP2020 certainly.

Quote from: tenbones;885611Not precisely, but I wouldn't argue that point. They tend to be a *lot* younger than your average 1%er.

They're like more gangbanger's that are closer to the street-racing scene here in America by analogy. Like you'll see an element of Crips and Bloods and Surenos/NorCals into street-racing, Bosuzoku are like those particular kinds of gangbangers. They do a lot of petty-crime etc. But those that get into heavier stuff, court the yaks and are often called upon by the yakuza until they can get "in" to do "stuff". It allows them to earn their place and show their bonafides. Some Bosuzoku are actually controlled by established yakuza groups. It's a stepping stone for a lot of the younger yaks. So not all bosuzoku are gangsters per se, in the organized crime sense. They're like one branch of the farming league.

That's really interesting. Plenty of fodder for campaigns. It reminds me of Black Rain, another movie that at times feels very weakly cyberpunkish because of the visuals. It's that ridley scott touch.

QuoteI would say I was the same way... but I admit I felt that way about Lord of the Rings and Middle-Earth. But in the modern-sense I think cyberpunk made me want to rediscover not just the world IN the genre - but it made me reconsider what in happening around me.

Before I got into cyberpunk, I devoured everything Dragonlance, or by the Hicks/Weissman team (Star of the Guardians). They're good writers, but I wish I had discovered Tolkien first.

I usually read speculative fiction for the worldbuilding aspect of it. Not having grown up stateside, or in environments with more organized gangs, or with access to networks/bbs, I never thought about it much in terms of the world I was in. After reading some sociology books on gangs like the gangster disciples and things like defensible spaces, though, I began to see the connections more concretely.

QuoteI still tink bottles at my kids, crooning "Warrrriors...." My and my friends dressed up like the Baseball Furies on more than one Halloween. Good times.

Haha. Are you able to get your kids to watch any of those 70's and 80's flicks?

QuoteWhen it got to the parts with Cyrus and this unified gang-front - that was very much already in play with the Crips and Bloods where I grew up.

"Can you dig it!?"

I've been meaning to find the book that the movie was inspired on. I read it was written by a sociologist and is supposed to be very realistic.

QuoteYou know, I heard this. I think Gibson was already done with the book when the movie launched, it just hadn't been published. What this says to me is that the cyberpunk consciousness was already simmering in the collective imagination. Scott and Gibson just took it over the boiling point into explosion-mode.

That's probably the truth.

QuoteI would disagree with Pundit that CP2020/Shadowrun are the exemplars of the genre. I agree with others that say TTRPG's are too niche to take that kind of credit. Especially since in fiction and movie circles the genre is still very much alive, if not, more evolved than CP2020 certainly.

yeah. I'll admit, though, that CP2020 was my gateway to cyberpunk. Like I said, I was very into dragonlance, and horror, but the cp genre really captured my imagination.

Quote from: tenbones;885602Yep. There's a yakuza gang-war brewing right now in fact.

Bosozoku are really low-end of the spectrum in Japanese organized crime in terms of influence, but definitely have their place in the discussion. It's a very cyberpunk entry point for gaming purposes too.

The book Speed Tribes (which correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a loose translation of the term bosozoku) gives a little bit of insight into the Speed Tribes mindset, although it is very dated now (1993-ish, I think).

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;885576Also, I think that the high-tech that exists in akira is pervasive. You've got stuff like the holographic ads, kaneda's bike, vehicles, and stuff. Not as much as in Bladerunner or BGC, but still different enough from our own tech level that you could call it near future.  

I don't know that I'd call it pervasive so much as set-dressing; Tetsuo's obsession with Kaneda's bike is touched on but isn't a major focus in the anime.  In the comics, it is a bit more but by the time the major acts of the comics kick off, the entirety of Neo Tokyo is in ruins and it's more of a postapocalypse situation.
 

QuoteI think that the tech in Alien is basically the same as in Bladerunner. It has the same retrofitted look, probably because they used the same props for both movies. Sometimes I fancy they are in the same universe and time line, but I'm not sure if Ridley has ever said anything about it.

Scott reused a few things here and again; if you notice the video instrument panel in Gaff (E.J. Olmos') flying car and the escape pod (and possibly the actual Nostromo itself) display the same data a few times.  It's hard to miss once you know what you're looking at.

The idea that (perhaps) they're shared worlds would be an intriguing line of thought.  Although beyond the scope of P.K. Dick's work in some ways, you could make the argument that the rush to colonization in Alien/Aliens and the search for off-planet resources was an outgrowth of the third world war that exterminated much of the fauna on earth and left earth a fallout-dusted dying world (not really explored deeply in the film other than the comment about Tyrell's owl).  Perhaps the Shimagua/Domingo Corporation, The Tyrell Corp., and Weyland/Yutani are all competitors.  Hell, let's throw in Consolidated Amalgamated from Outland just to cover all our bases!

New question about cyber punk.

All the important foundational works of cyber punk you have listed on the past couple of pages have a strong element of street violence, hoods, gangs, violent crime.  Warriors, Akira, Neuromancer, definately A clockwork orange, Robo Cop, add in Judge Dredd if you like.  

They are all 80s and 90s sone even earlier.  In the 80s violent crime was getting really bad (so I have read).  Then it started to drop off in the early 90s.  No one really knows why.  The leading explanation is probably Roe vs Wade.  My favourite explanation is taking the lead out of the gasoline.  Now we have very low, absurdly low, almost supernaturally low levels of violent crime.

Is cyber punk obsolete?  


You can't write any of those stories (Neuromancer possible exception) with out a dread of violent street gangs.  We don't much violent crime, is it still possible to write those stories?

Quote from: Headless;885655New question about cyber punk.

All the important foundational works of cyber punk you have listed on the past couple of pages have a strong element of street violence, hoods, gangs, violent crime.  Warriors, Akira, Neuromancer, definately A clockwork orange, Robo Cop, add in Judge Dredd if you like.  

They are all 80s and 90s sone even earlier.  In the 80s violent crime was getting really bad (so I have read).  Then it started to drop off in the early 90s.  No one really knows why.  The leading explanation is probably Roe vs Wade.  My favourite explanation is taking the lead out of the gasoline.  Now we have very low, absurdly low, almost supernaturally low levels of violent crime.

Is cyber punk obsolete?  


You can't write any of those stories (Neuromancer possible exception) with out a dread of violent street gangs.  We don't much violent crime, is it still possible to write those stories?

If you're up for a bit of reading, I would say go back to Burning Chrome. It's a collection of short stories and essentially lays the foundation for Neuromancer and the Sprawl trilogy. While you had gangs the stories gave a strong sense that street crime was the shallow end of the pool and it was the corporate stuff that doesn't get reported where the real money was. In addition to the horrid adaption of Johnny Mnemonic, this is also the source of the New Rose Hotel if you are more of a movie person.  

More recently Gibson wrote a trilogy of present day novels starting with Pattern Recognition. They are a fun read as well.

Quote from: Headless;885655New question about cyber punk.

All the important foundational works of cyber punk you have listed on the past couple of pages have a strong element of street violence, hoods, gangs, violent crime.  Warriors, Akira, Neuromancer, definately A clockwork orange, Robo Cop, add in Judge Dredd if you like.  

They are all 80s and 90s sone even earlier.  In the 80s violent crime was getting really bad (so I have read).  Then it started to drop off in the early 90s.  No one really knows why.  The leading explanation is probably Roe vs Wade.  My favourite explanation is taking the lead out of the gasoline.  Now we have very low, absurdly low, almost supernaturally low levels of violent crime.

Is cyber punk obsolete?  


You can't write any of those stories (Neuromancer possible exception) with out a dread of violent street gangs.  We don't much violent crime, is it still possible to write those stories?

The Water Knife is the most cyberpunk thing I've read in forever, by Paolo Bacigalupi.  I highly recommend it to, like, everyone.

Honestly, I think Cyberpunk is incredibly alive and vital, it's just set in the modern day or the very, very near future.  Breaking Bad is incredibly cyberpunk, in my opinion, it just doesn't have any cyberwear in it, but the rest of it -- the minimization of the individual in the face of corporate and government power, the underworld, subcultures, drugs, the street finding its own use for things, all of that's there.  Same with The Bridge, both versions.  I could go on, but in general, I think cyberpunk is now.  Gibson proved that, if nothing else, with his last trilogy.