Quote from: Madprofessor;885044I guess you believe that there is no clear pattern here on these threads.  It's all just random complaints by random people with nothing in common and therefore nothing can be learned.

Forum complaints vs. Backer dollars?

Gamers are voting with their dollars FOR what Modiphius is offering.
Other gamers are voting against with forum posts.

Did you check out the 7th Sea 2e Quickstart? There is no question its got Forge-isms galore, and its the most successful RPG KS ever. It closed out today at $1.3M

You, me and many others may prefer "traditional" RPGs, but a huge number of people are willing to throw down $$$ for RPGs with narrative elements.

By comparison, the DCC RPG KS (as trad as they come) only hit $215k
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1409961192/dcc-rpg-4th-printing

Quote from: Madprofessor;885044I am glad you and your jock are happy.  Now, can I move on please?

I thank you. And my jock thanks you as well.

Now you may move on.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051Forum complaints vs. Backer dollars?

Backers that are likely uncaring about the system, all they see is CONAN.  And that's all they likely care about.

And backer dollars mean nothing.  Here's something as well, let's say they didn't reach their goal in time.  Guess, what?  The money was never theirs.  It never left the wallets.  And actually, until the Kickstarter ends, Modiphius STILL doesn't have any of the money.

The real proof in the pudding is when they start selling the books AFTER the Kickstarter.  If they keep making the money they need to retain the license then.

But until that point, it's all smoke and bullshit.

And frankly, if Modiphius continues to sell the books?  Awesome.  I'll buy them when they're out, whether in PDF or, I would personally prefer, hard copies.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051Gamers are voting with their dollars FOR what Modiphius is offering.

Which at this is nothing but a promise with nothing to show for it other than a Quickstarter that's likely got a very tiny slice of the rules.  You want the entire game line to be judged on just this?

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051Did you check out the 7th Sea 2e Quickstart? There is no question its got Forge-isms galore, and its the most successful RPG KS ever. It closed out today at $1.3M

And how much of that is nostalgia?  We don't know.  Again, until the KS closed out and the people who pledged get their books, we know nothing.

Actually, even now that it's closed out, we still know nothing because none of the promised product is out.  And unlike the CONAN game there isn't even a quickstart booklet to give a taste.

It's a PROMISE of a product, not a product.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051You, me and many others may prefer "traditional" RPGs, but a huge number of people are willing to throw down $$$ for RPGs with narrative elements.

Citation needed.  All we see is popular NAMES getting money.  That's it.  There is no correlation or causation.

Zero.

Nada.

Nil.

Zilch.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051By comparison, the DCC RPG KS (as trad as they come) only hit $215k
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1409961192/dcc-rpg-4th-printing

Which was and still is a no-name game from a company with no recognizable gamer street cred.  Again, you're drawing conclusions about things without actually seeing the facts.

Here's some facts about Conan, there have been at least three Hollywood movies, spanning at least about 30 years.  There was, no let me correct myself here, IS a series of comic books/magazines that have been occurring on and off for the past 40 years.  There was a popular game line that lasted 6 years, with two editions.  The property and character has not left the geek public's eye since the 70's.  And even better, everyone knows who Conan is at the moment, even if they mock the character.

John Wick is the famous creator of an RPG that was tied to card game, and yet, had enough appeal to the, then relatively new, Anime gamer fan by making Legend of The Five Rings RPG.  A loosely Japanese-based fantasy game in a decade that didn't really have anything that stood out.

He's also been in the geek public's eye for his infamously glorious internet flame outs, every time he opens his mouth, people notice and mock.  Even those outside of forums, as I'm pretty sure my local game store can't possibly be unique about that.

And what exactly does DCC or Goodman Games have compared to that?  Does anyone know who they are outside of a select few who either kickstarted or bought the book when it came out in hard copy/PDF?

From what I can tell, this is the only site where it has a very enthusiastic fan.  And that's Pundit.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885051By comparison, the DCC RPG KS (as trad as they come) only hit $215k
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1409961192/dcc-rpg-4th-printing

• DCC is very loosely tied to Aerth, but DCC doesn't really have a setting. Theah is known from the card game as well and the Hyborian Age...nuff said.
• DCC is known by Old School roleplayers.  7th Sea is known by CCGers and as for Conan, yeah a bit bigger.
• DCC was the 4th Printing of a known game, the other two games aren't finished.
• Goodman didn't decide to hand out the entire 3rd Edition line of DCC Modules in pdf like Wick did, and the stretch goals are very few compared to either 7th or Conan.
• 7th Sea stuff is widely applicable to the Pirate genre at large, the Conan stuff will be useful for anything Conan in general.  DCC...well, it has some cool ideas for other OSR games, but the extreme 70's gonzo nature of the adventures makes them much less useful cross-platform.

Also on the (mostly)trad side you have WotC and Paizo who don't need KS because they're nearly all of the industry.

Comparatively, Goodman actually kicked some ass and punched way above his weight.  Conan KS hasn't even doubled his yet, although it might.

If someone told me you were gonna come out with a new Conan game, with actual Howard scholars fact-checking, art from practically every Conan artist ever, with 12 sourcebooks, art book, Age of Conan MMO tie-in, Monolith Conan tie-in, and map by Brom, I'd have thought it a no-brainer that you would double the KS for the 4th printing of DCC.

This is a bit off topic, but I've been living under a rock.

Spinach the cat with a bored game jock itch for Conan seems to be suggesting that trad roleplaying is a feeble and dying hobby replaced by forgiastic narri-gaming - the implication being that we are not worth Modiphius' time or attention. CB and CRK say nah, and there seems to be good evidence on both sides.

I must say that I am shocked at how well 7th Sea is doing (especially vs Conan), but then its hard to ignore the gorillas, Paizo and WotC, selling traditional games (and Goodman as a pure metal third party hanging on the coattails).  The truth must be somewhere in-between.  There has certainly been some big changes since I first crawled under my rock, and I have some things to learn about how the industry has changed, but the split, unfortunate as it is, seems real enough (it does look more like a split than a massive takeover).

Call me dense, but I still can't understand why a project like a new Conan RPG can't figure out how to reach out to people on both sides of the fence.  REH has not taken sides in the split.  The Hyborian Age must have an appeal to both story-gamers and trad roleplayers. The split seems to be a reality of the market that could be addressed by a savvy company, especially with a games-theory neutral license like Conan. Maybe I am way off, but this product seems to be driving wedges rather than building bridges and that can't be good for business or for the community, given the tight space that we all share.

This is all just rhetorical musing by the way.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078I still can't understand why a project like a new Conan RPG can't figure out how to reach out to people on both sides of the fence.  REH has not taken sides in the split.  The Hyborian Age must have an appeal to both story-gamers and trad roleplayers.

It's Conan, man. My assumption is that people are a bit fed up with it, and frankly I'm not surprised. No matter what clever mechanics you'll add, no matter what face you paint over it, it's still same old Conan's world.

Not that it's bad. It's just same old stuff.

Spoiler

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078Call me dense, but I still can't understand why a project like a new Conan RPG can't figure out how to reach out to people on both sides of the fence.  REH has not taken sides in the split.  The Hyborian Age must have an appeal to both story-gamers and trad roleplayers. The split seems to be a reality of the market that could be addressed by a savvy company, especially with a games-theory neutral license like Conan. Maybe I am way off, but this product seems to be driving wedges rather than building bridges and that can't be good for business or for the community, given the tight space that we all share.

This is all just rhetorical musing by the way.

I'm probably stepping into a huge pile of shit here, but sometimes it feels necessary...

I'm following four forums (formerly five before the conan.com forums shut down), reading ALL of the comments on the Kickstarter page and the comments from the updates. I'm following the Google community, and have been actively talking and listening about the game for six months.

We've got more than 2800 backers and we've raised more than $380,000 bucks in a month (remember our financing is in UK pounds, not dollars), with another week to go in the Kickstarter and more goodies to unveil. There's also stuff we haven't even hinted about coming down the pipeline, ambitious plans that won't even get mentioned in the Kickstarter.

There are people who're ambivalent about the game, even more who will discover that it's not to their taste, but the number of actually vocal critics is... somewhere under two dozen. I recognize some of the same people on different forums, under different handles. Maybe at worst, there are twice that number. At a certain point, we have to listen to the largest number of voices, not just the loudest.

I'm not saying your criticisms and concerns aren't of interest, and believe me, they are of interest, and are heard and discussed by the team, but at a certain point we have to make decisions, one way or another, and that means alienating someone.

Concerns brought up here have already made their way into the still-in-editing game, and have helped me/us identify potential problems. Thanks to the feedback here, I've been identifying places where we need to find better ways to explain the rules.

So thank you for that.

If the team didn't care what people thought of the game (as there seems to be this impression that choosing apples is showing contempt for oranges) I certainly wouldn't be spending so much time trying to answer questions and hearing issues. I'll admit I get pissy about it sometimes, as I'm also trying to wrangle a huge team of writers and deal with the needs of the Kickstarter promotion, when what I really want to do is get back to making cool shit and talking about REH and Conan stuff with my team.

Ultimately, we need to make the game we feel is best for the long term, for the company and to suit our own design goals.

If we were aiming at nothing but pure profit, it would likely be something like a Pathfinder adaptation or D&D 5th Edition adaptation, and if we were trying to enforce some sort of narrativist/storygamer agenda, it would be... I dunno... Fate or -World-based. I probably wouldn't be involved in either of those cases, or, for that matter, any setup where we're licensing someone else's system.

Instead, we're somewhere in the middle of the road with this new system, with some system-light elements (minion rules, the Fortune/Momentum/Doom economy, distances), and some really crunchy bits, such as weapon effects, randomly-rolled chargen, and talent trees.  

We think it's the right choice. We might be wrong, but honestly, I'm quite excited about the team (writing, art, and production), and am certain of our commitment to making this the best treatment of the license yet.

As a fellow Conan fan and longtime gamer, I'm sorry that we couldn't meet you somewhere halfway, but I'm just as sure that any approach other than the one we're taking would be a mistake.

Quote from: Jason D;885084I'm following four forums (formerly five before the conan.com forums shut down), reading ALL of the comments on the Kickstarter page and the comments from the updates. I'm following the Google community, and have been actively talking and listening about the game for six months.

Jesus Christ, Jason... I'll probably not gonna play the game (no offense please, my focus lies elsewhere these days), but your dedication is really praiseworthy.
:worship:

BTW, I think I finally TRULY understand what people mean when they write "thanks to my wife, who has been with me during the time of writing this game".

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053And backer dollars mean nothing.

And then if you don't like the future sales numbers, then those won't matter either!

I love Tigger brand goalposts!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053Which at this is nothing but a promise with nothing to show for it other than a Quickstarter that's likely got a very tiny slice of the rules.  You want the entire game line to be judged on just this?

How much of a book do you read before you buy it?

Few gamers know all the game's rules before buying any game. They flip through the book, they maybe read a review and buy what looks interesting.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053Citation needed.  All we see is popular NAMES getting money.  That's it.  There is no correlation or causation.

The only citation needed are the KS backers and their dollars.

In America, we judge popularity of a product by the number of people who are throwing dollars at it. And other companies pay great attention to what people are buying. That's how we get imitators and trends.

It's ludicrous to believe that gamers come in two flavors - those bamboozled by the NAMES and the wise ones who hate the system.

Even if 50% of the backers are just tossing cash at the NAMES, that still leaves LOADS of backers who downloaded the Quickstart and LIKE what they are being offered.

I don't know why they like it, but many people apparently do.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053Which was and still is a no-name game from a company with no recognizable gamer street cred.  Again, you're drawing conclusions about things without actually seeing the facts.

Wow. So now Goodman Games is an unrecognizable no-name company, and John Wick is the household name?

I stand in awe of your bouncing goalposts. Tigger brand is the best!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885053And what exactly does DCC or Goodman Games have compared to that?  Does anyone know who they are outside of a select few who either kickstarted or bought the book when it came out in hard copy/PDF?

Here is the RPG event list from 2015's GenCon.
http://gencon.eventdb.us/category.php?EventType=RPG

7th Sea had 14 events
L5R had 28 events
DCC RPG had 49 events

Here is the RPG event list from 2014's GenCon
http://gencon.highprogrammer.com/gencon-indy-2014.cgi/type/RPG

7th Sea had 29 events
L5R had 37 events
DCC RPG had 28 events

So while DCC is a smaller company without any CCG, there is certainly a player base who are willing to spend money.

If the GenCon data isn't enough, feel free to look at regional conventions and Origins. I believe you will see lots of DCC public play.

BTW, Modiphius is offering $60 in store credit for each GM who runs their games at GenCon. So clearly, GenCon's events are an important metric.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078Spinach the cat with a bored game jock itch for Conan seems to be suggesting that trad roleplaying is a feeble and dying hobby replaced by forgiastic narri-gaming - the implication being that we are not worth Modiphius' time or attention.

In you previous post, you asked for permission to move on and my jock genie graciously granted your wish. But then you came back. Do not anger the jock genie!!

Go check out those GenCon links. Crunch some math. Figure out which games you would consider "traditional" and which you would not.

I believe you will see two things - (1) traditional RPGs are dominant, (2) non-traditional RPGs have an audience.

I am not part of that 2nd group, but that non-traditional RPG audience is obviously happy to spend money on their not-trad hobby on Kickstarter. And maybe, they are a notable enough audience to support mid-size companies like Modiphius.

As for feebleness, the entire hobby is freaking feeble (compared to what it should be / could be) because there's a lack of advertising and marketing to today's teens so the hobby is aging. And its super sad and stupid because lots of modern teens freaking love RPGs when you introduce them to gaming.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078Call me dense, but I still can't understand why a project like a new Conan RPG can't figure out how to reach out to people on both sides of the fence.

I don't disagree with you.

If I was in charge, there would be 2D20 Conan, Pathfinder Conan, 5e Conan, RQ6 Conan, and System Free Hyborean Supplements.

But I do not have the data of how well multi-system products do out in the marketplace. It seems a no-brainer to me in the age of PDF downloads and print on demand, but I may be absolutely wrong.

Frog God Games and Troll Lord do it, but they are small companies trying to appeal to both the OSR and the 5e crowd. Maybe the ROI falls apart for a mid-size company like Modiphius.

And maybe you are right, maybe a very traditional RPG for Conan would have been a much bigger success.

But it appears Modiphius is banking on some Conan fans becoming Modiphius fans and enjoying their proprietary 2D20 house system.

And that's not a new thing. Many companies have used the Popular IP game to promote their house system to sell their other games.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885078Maybe I am way off, but this product seems to be driving wedges rather than building bridges and that can't be good for business or for the community, given the tight space that we all share.

There is no "fixing" the split.

For most people, RPG means a game you play on your computer.
For some people, RPG means traditional tabletop games.
For other people, RPG means narrative "storygames"

There will always be some people who cross over between the groups, but the majority of people have their favorite RPG style and stick with it.

I don't believe one system can appeal to both groups, and Modiphius believes in the value and appeal of their house system.

If cross-over blended trad/not-trad games are possible, maybe 2D20 Conan and 7th Sea 2e are going to become popular RPGs.

We will see.

But until then, why don't you gather a crew of RQ 6 fans who are Conan fans and crank out a kickass free PDF for people to download?

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141And then if you don't like the future sales numbers, then those won't matter either!

I love Tigger brand goalposts!

What mobile goal posts?  You're the one trying to move them.  My stance has always been that Kickstarter money (which isn't even in the bank at the moment, it's waiting for the timer to stop) is not 'future sales'.  It's down payments at best for a PROMISE.  One that Modiphius claims they will fulfill.

And I'm NOT saying they can't.  I'm also not saying they CAN either.  That's up to them to finish the book and it's up to people who pay for the books AFTER the KS.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141How much of a book do you read before you buy it?

As much as I can.  Which is why I go to a local game store that allows perusal.  I try to get as many sections of the book in my head to see if I can agree with it's conceits.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141Few gamers know all the game's rules before buying any game. They flip through the book, they maybe read a review and buy what looks interesting.

This though is a fair point.  Thing is, right now, there are NO reviews on the Core Book.  Because the Core Book is NOT OUT YET.  And won't be for at least several months.

There's nothing yet other than a free Quickstart designed to whet the appetite.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141The only citation needed are the KS backers and their dollars.

But those dollars do not exist yet.  The Kickstarter isn't over, and until it does, the credit cards are NOT charged, neither is Paypal.  They do NOT have the money yet.

And once more, into the same old breech, what have they bought?  What is in their hands right now?  I see nothing.  Zero.  And until we see that, all we know for a FACT is that CONAN gets people to willing put down payments on a promise.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141In America, we judge popularity of a product by the number of people who are throwing dollars at it. And other companies pay great attention to what people are buying. That's how we get imitators and trends.

But NO ONE HAS BOUGHT ANYTHING!  There's nothing to buy but Mr. Jason Durrall's promises that this game will be the shit.

Or are you telling me that they bought the Quickstart, which is being given out FOR FREE to everyone.  I don't know about you, but if that's the case, people should get their money back.

But we know better than that.  I hope.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141It's ludicrous to believe that gamers come in two flavors - those bamboozled by the NAMES and the wise ones who hate the system.

Who says there's only two?  What is it with the Internet and Extremes.  Com'on man, the 90's are over, there really is a middle ground.

But come on, how many people went to see the Jason Mamoa film because of his name and/or Conan's without even bothering with a review?  And how many of those people regretted it?  According to various metric sites...  Quite a few (but at least it did better than Fant4stic Poor.  Boy, did that get butchered.  Yowch.)

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141Even if 50% of the backers are just tossing cash at the NAMES, that still leaves LOADS of backers who downloaded the Quickstart and LIKE what they are being offered.

Citation needed.  Just because one downloads the QS doesn't mean it's been read, or if it has, is liked.  it just means it's been downloaded.

Why are you attributing causation when you have no facts.

I don't know who likes it or not, I'm not even saying that.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141I don't know why they like it, but many people apparently do.

Citation needed.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141Wow. So now Goodman Games is an unrecognizable no-name company, and John Wick is the household name?

Yes.  Because they don't have any world wide recognition.  Will that change?  No clue.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141I stand in awe of your bouncing goalposts. Tigger brand is the best!

Look, I get it, Tigger was the coolest character in Pooh, I loved him too, but your projection of what you're doing on to me really needs to stop.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141Here is the RPG event list from 2015's GenCon.
http://gencon.eventdb.us/category.php?EventType=RPG

7th Sea had 14 events
L5R had 28 events
DCC RPG had 49 events

Here is the RPG event list from 2014's GenCon
http://gencon.highprogrammer.com/gencon-indy-2014.cgi/type/RPG

7th Sea had 29 events
L5R had 37 events
DCC RPG had 28 events

So while DCC is a smaller company without any CCG, there is certainly a player base who are willing to spend money.

And here's some facts for you.  L5R started in 1995 by Alderac.  So it's been around for about 21 years in both card and RPG game form.  7th Sea, also by John Wick and Alderac Entertainment Group came out in 1999, which puts it at 17 years.  So two games with nearly two decades of life, which are still getting played compared to a game that was published in 2012, which puts it about 4 years.

So last year's Gencon two of the games that Mr. Wick has put out is being BARELY BEATEN by a newer, thus fresher in the minds of gamers, game, and your saying that DCC is 'better'?

Together, John Wick's games total 42 spots, compared to the 49 DCC asked for.  (We're also making a massive assumption that every seat was filled.)

And yet, in 2014, L5R and 7th Sea combined beat it handily, two game lines that are much OLDER than DCC.

I'm sorry, but...  You've just proven my point.  John Wick's games are still more popular, and more in the minds of people than Goodman Game's newer DCC retro-clone wannabe.

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141If the GenCon data isn't enough, feel free to look at regional conventions and Origins. I believe you will see lots of DCC public play.

BTW, Modiphius is offering $60 in store credit for each GM who runs their games at GenCon. So clearly, GenCon's events are an important metric.

Metric for what?  Specifically.  That Modiphius feels the need to bribe GMs to run games at their event?  If you look at it in that way, that doesn't look so good.

Or are you being bamboozled (thanks for using that word, it's a long time since I heard/saw it, and it's a fun one!    No, really, I sincerely thank you for it!) by the promise of 'free' money?

Quote from: Spinachcat;885141But until then, why don't you gather a crew of RQ 6 fans who are Conan fans and crank out a kickass free PDF for people to download?

Because Conan Properties would probably threaten to sue.  And given how much money the gaming hobby doesn't have, I think a lot of people would like to avoid that.

And Conan Properties has proven to be very litigious.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
I'm probably stepping into a huge pile of shit here, but sometimes it feels necessary...

I'm following four forums (formerly five before the conan.com forums shut down), reading ALL of the comments on the Kickstarter page and the comments from the updates. I'm following the Google community, and have been actively talking and listening about the game for six months.

We've got more than 2800 backers and we've raised more than $380,000 bucks in a month (remember our financing is in UK pounds, not dollars), with another week to go in the Kickstarter and more goodies to unveil. There's also stuff we haven't even hinted about coming down the pipeline, ambitious plans that won't even get mentioned in the Kickstarter.

There are people who're ambivalent about the game, even more who will discover that it's not to their taste, but the number of actually vocal critics is... somewhere under two dozen. I recognize some of the same people on different forums, under different handles. Maybe at worst, there are twice that number. At a certain point, we have to listen to the largest number of voices, not just the loudest.

I'm not saying your criticisms and concerns aren't of interest, and believe me, they are of interest, and are heard and discussed by the team, but at a certain point we have to make decisions, one way or another, and that means alienating someone.

Concerns brought up here have already made their way into the still-in-editing game, and have helped me/us identify potential problems. Thanks to the feedback here, I've been identifying places where we need to find better ways to explain the rules.

So thank you for that.

If the team didn't care what people thought of the game (as there seems to be this impression that choosing apples is showing contempt for oranges) I certainly wouldn't be spending so much time trying to answer questions and hearing issues. I'll admit I get pissy about it sometimes, as I'm also trying to wrangle a huge team of writers and deal with the needs of the Kickstarter promotion, when what I really want to do is get back to making cool shit and talking about REH and Conan stuff with my team.

Ultimately, we need to make the game we feel is best for the long term, for the company and to suit our own design goals.

If we were aiming at nothing but pure profit, it would likely be something like a Pathfinder adaptation or D&D 5th Edition adaptation, and if we were trying to enforce some sort of narrativist/storygamer agenda, it would be... I dunno... Fate or -World-based. I probably wouldn't be involved in either of those cases, or, for that matter, any setup where we're licensing someone else's system.

Instead, we're somewhere in the middle of the road with this new system, with some system-light elements (minion rules, the Fortune/Momentum/Doom economy, distances), and some really crunchy bits, such as weapon effects, randomly-rolled chargen, and talent trees.

We think it's the right choice. We might be wrong, but honestly, I'm quite excited about the team (writing, art, and production), and am certain of our commitment to making this the best treatment of the license yet.

As a fellow Conan fan and longtime gamer, I'm sorry that we couldn't meet you somewhere halfway, but I'm just as sure that any approach other than the one we're taking would be a mistake.

Jason, that is about the most gracious and honest post I have seen since I joined these forums. Integrity is so rare that it shocking when you see it.  I think I will back the kickstarter for the adventures, setting, and art.  I will not "vote with my wallet" as if we are foes.  I'll maybe even give the game a couple of more tries. Though I still might call it "Conan the Forge-arian," at least in private. Thanks for the discussion and for listening, and sorry for pissing you off and making your enviable but difficult job a true pain in the ass.

Cheers, and may Ishtar bless the project with her golden bosom!

Epilogue...

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat
In you previous post, you asked for permission to move on and my jock genie graciously granted your wish. But then you came back. Do not anger the jock genie!!

I once had an Elric! character with a demonic cod piece who would destroy the Jock itch Genie! :jaw-dropping: Do not anger and invoke Deltar Copenhagen!. (its true).

QuoteGo check out those GenCon links. Crunch some math. Figure out which games you would consider "traditional" and which you would not.

I believe you will see two things - (1) traditional RPGs are dominant, (2) non-traditional RPGs have an audience.

That's useful.  At the moment, I'd rather rely on your knowledge then conduct my own analysis as it sounds roughly accurate to me (I am 4 beers in and willing to agree with my own beliefs).

QuoteBut it appears Modiphius is banking on some Conan fans becoming Modiphius fans and enjoying their proprietary 2D20 house system.

And that's not a new thing. Many companies have used the Popular IP game to promote their house system to sell their other games.

I guess, but that seems wrong.  Don't we owe a little something to REH, Martin, Tolkien, Gygax? It is just an impression, but systems are a dime a dozen, good settings are gems (and the Hyborian Age really is the original fantasy setting - or close to it).  I would be surprised if system loyalty is >greater than> setting loyalty. It's unquatifiable, but there are interesting implications nonetheless.  

If it were me, I would create a game specifically to model the IP (what does IP stand for, anyway?) as closely as possible for the sake of the IP, for longevity, and just 'cause its the right thing to do.  With all due respect to Jason, this Conan game still feels like Mutant Chronicles of the Hyborian Age.  System wise, CoC or Pendragon are models for any IP based game.  They are systems that really honor the setting and have stood the test of time.  Why don't IP designers emulate S. Peterson's CoC design ethos?  Maybe they do. I dunno, I'm a six pack in and I'm sure I had something profound to say but it slipped my mind...

QuoteAs for feebleness, the entire hobby is freaking feeble (compared to what it should be / could be) because there's a lack of advertising and marketing to today's teens so the hobby is aging. And its super sad and stupid because lots of modern teens freaking love RPGs when you introduce them to gaming.

I may be naive, but I think our hobby is at the creative root of popular culture!  Roleplaying matters! Its' culturally relevant. Novels, movies, video games, bored games, etc draw a lot of inspiration from us assholes and from my demonic cod piece. Not stroking my ego here but I've been GMing for nearly 4 decades.  Without conscious effort, I've sold countless novels, movie tickets and video games to former players who were inspired by, nay searching for, the memories of our imaginative gaming.  I'm also 7 beers in, and it's my delusion, so I'm sticking to it.

On the other hand.  If anybody had ideas on how to expand the hobby. I'm all ears.

QuoteThere is no "fixing" the split.

Bah. Cowardice I say. Damn jock itch genie veggie cat! (8 beers).  Actually, you probably know better than I.  I just learned about the split a few weeks ago. but forge theory (GNS) is built on an incredibly divisive and false assumption that G, N, and S are mutually exclusive. What a crock!

I am a historical minis gamer, have been for ages, and I often include mass battles in my RPGs adding a strategic level to the game.  I am also extremely story focused (never used gold for XP), it's part of the immersion, (but I am a "simm-u-la-tion-ist," and apparently a hardcore one). According to forge design theory (as I have learned), the fun that I have had for years is impossible.

Anyway, when people get together at the table "the split" means a lot less, and I think we are all looking for the same imaginative experiences.  There must be a way to bridge the gap. We do it at the table regardless of system, at least at my table (or do people have theory wars at the table :confused:0

It seems at the least, people could publish systems where story mechanics are addable/removable to suit tastes.

QuoteBut until then, why don't you gather a crew of RQ 6 fans who are Conan fans and crank out a kickass free PDF for people to download?

That's exactly what I'll do!:cool: (9 beers in)... wait, is that legal??? with Conan??? Publish where?? how? what?

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187System wise, CoC or Pendragon are models for any IP based game.  They are systems that really honor the setting and have stood the test of time.  

Both of these are based on the rules for RuneQuest.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885147But those dollars do not exist yet.  The Kickstarter isn't over, and until it does, the credit cards are NOT charged, neither is Paypal.  They do NOT have the money yet.

We must agree to disagree because we aren't on the same basic page.

You believe that backer pledges are not money and I believe they are money (except for the small percentage of backers who do back out).

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885147That Modiphius feels the need to bribe GMs to run games at their event?  If you look at it in that way, that doesn't look so good.

Actually paying GMs to run their events is brilliant marketing.

If they screen the GMs and bring talent to promote their stuff, they will be promoting their games strongly at GenCon which has a ripple effect as those players return home.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885147Because Conan Properties would probably threaten to sue.

Nobody is gonna give a shit about yet another free RPG PDF wandering the internet. If something isn't being sold, there's nothing to sue.

Plenty of unlicensed conversions for IPs are floating about.

Disney is known to be psycho-litigious, but plenty of unofficial Star Wars sites and conversions can be found for various game systems.

In fact, you can snatch up all the amazing Conan artwork online and slap that into the PDF too!

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187I once had an Elric! character with a demonic cod piece who would destroy the Jock itch Genie!

An Elric fan! Awesome! We must jabber about Stormbringer in another thread!

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187Don't we owe a little something to REH, Martin, Tolkien, Gygax?

Admiration? Corpse blowjobs?

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187It is just an impression, but systems are a dime a dozen, good settings are gems (and the Hyborian Age really is the original fantasy setting - or close to it).

Good settings are gems, but while a good GM may not write like REH, I believe many good GMs have created wonderful settings for their home games that can often rival any published setting.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187If it were me, I would create a game specifically to model the IP (what does IP stand for, anyway?) as closely as possible for the sake of the IP, for longevity, and just 'cause its the right thing to do.

IP is Intellectual Property.

I truly believe Jason D's team is trying to make the 2D20 system work for Conan just like Chaosium made their BRP system work for CoC and Pendragon and Stormbringer.

You and I just don't like the direction Modiphius has chosen.

I'm a huge CoC fan and a huge HPL fan, but I am ready to admit that CoC doesn't emulate HPL's fiction. It's inspired by his fiction, but a CoC adventure has more in common with a D&D romp than a HPL tale.

And that's okay, because CoC is about having a fun horror game with friends around the table, not trying to recreate HPL's writing style.

Quote from: Madprofessor;885187If anybody had ideas on how to expand the hobby. I'm all ears.

Run demo games for teens.

Run demo games for lapsed gamers.

Run demo games for adults who heard of D&D, but never tried it.

AKA, the more public play, the better.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
Both of these are based on the rules for RuneQuest.

True, my preferences are showing.

Wow, Modiphius are adding a 2 year print subscription to all its big pledges

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/modiphius/robert-e-howards-conan-roleplaying-game/posts/1520991

That's a massive giveaway (though I guess what you get in the 2 years after the corebook is released as somewhat nebulous).

As good as the deal is, I can't help but feel like this shows that they haven't quite hit the success they were hoping for this KS. Its only a smidgeon over the Corvus Infinity KS at the moment. The last 4 days are really going to be interesting.