Quote from: Madprofessor;884665That's what I have been saying.  I can't understand Modiphius' business model, unless they have some narrative theory chip on their shoulder.  There is a clear gap here in their marketing.  Why wouldn't they want to create a product to capture the traditional market?  It doesn't make business sense.

Please define what you mean by "the traditional market."

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
Please define what you mean by "the traditional market."

I just meant the people who play and prefer traditional style RPGs - immersionists, simmulationists, grognards, old school, whatever - I perhaps don't have the right label.  Ya know, RPGs where players play their character and the GM controls the world.  D&D, BRP, GURPS, RQ, BoL, are a good examples - there are many others.

I don't know if there are any studies out there, but I think a significant portion of the RPG market is uninterested in a game built around metagame mechanics or storygame mechanics which the 2d20 system is full of.  Like Kruger said - we now have a boardgame, we are getting a storygame, the only thing we are lacking is an RPG.  Maybe those categories are too black and white, that there is some crossovers in each, but if you look around the internet a bit (and I am sure you have) there are significant numbers of people who are unhappy with the 2d20 system.  That doesn't mean its a bad system - that means there are groups that it doesn't work for.  Look back across this thread.  Look at Modiphius' own forum, look on purple, or enworld, many people want a traditional style Conan RPG.

These aren't just vocal assholes.  They are just traditional RPG gamers who have been praying for a Conan game that have been left out.

- and, I believe they have money too.  WotC chose to target this group with 5e for a reason.

Please look at the "your preferred Conan RPG" thread on this site.  The votes, overwhelmingly are for a traditional style game .

Quotea part of me would love to see a dedicated BRP Conan book

You are not alone.  There are lots of people who would gladly pay for something along that line - I certainly would.

Madprofessor, why are you still talking about the system?  It's been done for at least a year. Mr. Durrall has no control, as is apparent form his answers.  He can't refute anything, because there's nothing that can be done.  Either accept it, or move on.

All we can do is vote with our wallet when they come out with the supplement mill.  We can't with the KS, because there's no product, people paid for a promise, and we CANNOT judge that as a success.  Because there's nothing to judge.

Here's what LIKELY MAY have happened.  Some dood trawling the Kickstarter site looking for an RPG to back.  Sees Conan, turns out he's a fan of the shitty Arnold movies, or even the pastiche or the real stories, sees the system, doesn't know anything about it, decides to put money down on it.

Done.  Doesn't care about the system simply because there's nothing TO care about, all he sees is CONAN OF CIMMERIA!  He tells his friends, and convinces then to back it too.  That's probably what sold a lot of people on the game.

And they're thinking about the setting, not the rules that actually make or break the game.

But the publishers will ALWAYS cite the money they got as a 'victory' and give the impression that they've made a successful product.  But they haven't.  They just hooked people on a promise, nothing more.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Christopher Brady
Madprofessor, why are you still talking about the system? It's been done for at least a year. Mr. Durrall has no control, as is apparent form his answers. He can't refute anything, because there's nothing that can be done. Either accept it, or move on.

He did ask a question, but... your point is taken.  I gave it my best shot.  Moving on now.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884645I'm simply impressed on how easily we gamers are swayed by promises.

I am unsure what you mean by promises?

What is Modiphius promising that you doubt they will deliver?

They have laid out the system in the Quickstart so there won't be any major surprises there, and they certainly have a solid history of delivering product.

Whether or not that product is to my taste or your taste may be questionable, but Modiphius certainly does put books in mailboxes.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884865All we can do is vote with our wallet when they come out with the supplement mill.  We can't with the KS, because there's no product, people paid for a promise, and we CANNOT judge that as a success.  Because there's nothing to judge.

Did you see the Quickstart? There's PLENTY to judge.

You absolutely can vote with the KS. Either back it or do not. If you back the KS, that's a "Vote For" and if you don't back it and don't buy it in the future, that's effectively a "Vote Against"

As with every other product else.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884865But the publishers will ALWAYS cite the money they got as a 'victory' and give the impression that they've made a successful product.  But they haven't.  They just hooked people on a promise, nothing more.

Dollars is how we count votes.

If you don't want to use finances as the metric for success, what do you suggest? And what is your justification for not using dollars?

Quote from: Madprofessor;884864Look at Modiphius' own forum, look on purple, or enworld, many people want a traditional style Conan RPG.

Then why wasn't Conan D20 a major success?

Conan D20 was built on 3e, the uber popular "traditional" system (that can suck my ebola nutz), and it had great art, the usual parade of "noted" RPG authors, and a big company behind it.

But where's the mega sales?

Thus, I can't really blame Modiphius for not listening to the same people who didn't buy D20 Conan, or any of the Conan-without-serial-numbers RPGs that have been produced.

Quote from: Jason D;884718Please define what you mean by "the traditional market."

People who read RPGs but don't play them and love to back Kickstarters with beautiful art books that promise them loving memories of the long gone days when they actually gamed?

Both Conan and 7th Sea absolutely has that "traditional market" - and from a publisher perspective, that's a damn good walk to the bank.

And based on what I've heard from Paizo, Readers / Collectors are far better splatbook and adventure customers than actual players.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Conan D20 was built on 3e, the uber popular "traditional" system (that can suck my ebola nutz), and it had great art, the usual parade of "noted" RPG authors, and a big company behind it.

But where's the mega sales?

It's Mongoose.  The game did well, but for the second edition...

• the quality of writing went way down in some supplements
• more overt D&D style magic
• black and white instead of the awesome first edition color pages
• maps even worse than the Mongoose standard
• a system that included more narrative stuff then first edition did
• included not one, but two "stop the end of the world mega-campaigns"

So making Conan d20 1e into more like newer d20 variants really didn't help.

But of course, the real kicker was, CPI didn't let Mongoose go ahead with plans for the line

Spoiler

because they had brought in the guys who wrote Sahara, and the director who makes remakes of horror movies to throw a big pile of shit on the back of Jason Momoa and have him carry it to where anything Conan would be worth a ton of money.  Well we all know how that worked out

so Mongoose just let the license expire.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877I am unsure what you mean by promises?

Most Kickstarters don't have a product to show for what they are offering.  This is a promise.  A promise that the money you're giving the company in question will result in something you can enjoy.

Hopefully, this will work out for Moduphius, but it's still just a promise right now.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877What is Modiphius promising that you doubt they will deliver?

A product on time.  But that's a flaw that all Kickstarters seem to have.  A game system that will emulate playing IN Hyboria (as opposed to a system that mimics some dead guy's writing style.)  And I think we all know how that latter promise isn't going to be fulfilled, given how hard Mr. Durrall has been lobbying at us to like the new system.

Luckily it's found some fans.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877They have laid out the system in the Quickstart so there won't be any major surprises there, and they certainly have a solid history of delivering product.

Which they put out AFTER they started the Kickstarter.  Meaning that most people went in blind, and googly-eyed when they saw CONAN.  In fact, a lot of people are likely to be clinging to the fact that it's another CONAN game.

And likely won't care if it used FATAL's system.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Whether or not that product is to my taste or your taste may be questionable, but Modiphius certainly does put books in mailboxes.

It doesn't matter the end result, they STARTED with a promise of a product that they do not have finished.  At this point.  And worse, they've got Stretch Goals, which will only add onto the workload.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Did you see the Quickstart? There's PLENTY to judge.

It's still not the entire game.  There may be some rules that aren't there.  Are we supposed to judge the ENTIRE game and the core rule book by the Quickstart?

That to me seems nonsensical.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877You absolutely can vote with the KS. Either back it or do not. If you back the KS, that's a "Vote For" and if you don't back it and don't buy it in the future, that's effectively a "Vote Against"

As with every other product else.

We cannot, because there's no product, no completed 'physical' (and by that I mean electronic or physical good) item that is being sold.  Just the promise of one.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Dollars is how we count votes.

If you don't want to use finances as the metric for success, what do you suggest? And what is your justification for not using dollars?

Dollars that are being held in hock right now, because there's no item to show for it.

All we know is that the name CONAN OF CIMMERIA has a LOT of pull.  So much that it's attracting wallets in his name.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Then why wasn't Conan D20 a major success?

Conan D20 was built on 3e, the uber popular "traditional" system (that can suck my ebola nutz), and it had great art, the usual parade of "noted" RPG authors, and a big company behind it.

But where's the mega sales?

It had 2 Editions, 4 core rule books and 38 supplements during its 6 year run.

And this is from a company that everyone hated (for some reason, I never had any problem with them) and a system that was more or less dying (and to this day, there's only two non-D&D games that still use the D20 core engine, Mutants and Masterminds and Fantasy Craft, and I'm not sure Fantasy Craft actually exists anymore.  Pathfinder is a D&D derivative, that smartly used WoTC's own OGL system to reprint the D20 rules with some -at times- dodgy systems and make a profit off people's hatred of what people incorrectly believe was WoTC's motive.)

How is that not a success?  And as I recall, Conan Properties was trying to leverage more money from Mongoose (who was trying to use their license to their Runequest system, which a lot of people still want) because of the God awful Jason Mamoa film was coming up and they wanted Mongoose to help promote another piece of crap pastiche.

But I could be misremembering that part (honest statement, the only thing I clearly remember is Mongoose mentioning licensing issues and the upcoming movie.  At the time.)

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877Thus, I can't really blame Modiphius for not listening to the same people who didn't buy D20 Conan, or any of the Conan-without-serial-numbers RPGs that have been produced.

And yet, we've been having people clamouring loudly, proudly, for a Runequest version of it.  And have been for decades.  Instead they attach it to a currently no name system that's got no legs at the moment, because (unless I'm wrong) has only ONE published RPG setting tied to it.

And outside of it's home country, Mutant Chronicles was a flash in the pan setting that died a quiet, miserable death in the 90s.  It wasn't as popular over here, no matter how hard they tried to make it into something successful.

Quote from: Spinachcat;884877People who read RPGs but don't play them and love to back Kickstarters with beautiful art books that promise them loving memories of the long gone days when they actually gamed?

Both Conan and 7th Sea absolutely has that "traditional market" - and from a publisher perspective, that's a damn good walk to the bank.

And based on what I've heard from Paizo, Readers / Collectors are far better splatbook and adventure customers than actual players.

I'm sorry, but Citation needed.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinachcat
Then why wasn't Conan D20 a major success?

I was under the impression that it did pretty well for an RPG.  I could be wrong.  It died, I thought, because the system was a poor mach for the setting.  When Mongoose tried to get it right (with RQ) the new movie came out, license over.

QuotePeople who read RPGs but don't play them and love to back Kickstarters with beautiful art books that promise them loving memories of the long gone days when they actually gamed?

Both Conan and 7th Sea absolutely has that "traditional market" - and from a publisher perspective, that's a damn good walk to the bank.

And based on what I've heard from Paizo, Readers / Collectors are far better splatbook and adventure customers than actual players.

OK, fine.  I was trying to point to what looks like a gap in the marketing to me.  The game doesn't work for me and it clearly doesn't work for a lot of people who don't like the meta-story-game system, and who have said as much here and elsewhere. I suppose, as you say, it is good business sense for Modiphius to not sell games to these people who want them.  Obviously, any attempt to make a product for this portion of the market would either be a dead end or competition for their pet house system, or probably both.  I guess out of the crapload of splatbooks, tile sets, funky dice, and gimmicks being produced by the some of the best artists and writers in the industry there just isn't room for a product that's suitable for someone who actually plays Hyborian Age RPGs (as opposed to storygames).

I'm just ranting over something I have no power over.  No offense is meant to anyone here.  The game, and what I have learned from this 3 weeks of discussion, has left a bitter taste about the whole RPG industry, and the rant is all I have to get rid of it.  I had planned on backing the project and making the best of it.  Now I feel obliged to vote with my wallet and ineffectually stand up for what is left of my hobby.  I wish the story-gamers and pretty-book collectors well.  I'm going to look for an RPG to play.

I've read RQ6 and it looks so damn easy to convert to Conan.

There's multiple easy options to get all the info you need to run a Hyborean Age RPG, including free online wikis, eBaying old Conan RPGs, and reading the actual REH stories.

Conversion looks easier (and faster) than re-reading this thread.

I am missing something?

Does your group of RQ 6 fans who are Conan fans really need a RQ6 Conan RPG to launch a new Conan campaign?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;884888And I think we all know how that latter promise isn't going to be fulfilled, given how hard Mr. Durrall has been lobbying at us to like the new system.

I'm answering questions and trying to clarify misconceptions, in my role as the lead developer.

There are four separate and current threads on this forum about the game (or in response to it), and one has my name specifically in the thread title.

Would you prefer I ignored these threads?

It is somewhat of a challenge to be told how the system fails to emulate the fiction of REH in one post, then  in another post have the game dismissed because it apparently emulates the fiction of REH too closely.

It should be apparent to anyone reading these different threads that there's no consensus on what system or approach is best, and I suspect that any approach will alienate some portion of the audience.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
It should be apparent to anyone reading these different threads that there's no consensus on what system or approach is best, and I suspect that any approach will alienate some portion of the audience.

There is considerable consensus across these threads about what the problem is.  This is a story game with some board game elements that cannot really be played as a traditional RPG without major system surgery.  The people who play traditional style RPGs are your alienated audience and are the people who are complaining and unhappy.

- I don't know how to make that any clearer.

There are disagreements among the disgruntled here about some specific facets of the game like whether mook rules make sense, funky dice for combat, or the general clamor against Zones for measurement. It's easy to get lost in these side arguments.  However, individually, these sub-systems and design choices are not too big of a deal and are only compounding symptoms of the larger problem. Systemically, the root of the problem which all of these systems connect to is the momentum/doom meta economy, the heart of the system, which cannot easily be worked around.  This core mechanic is what is questionably relevant to the Hyborian Age, and what makes all of these other mechanics, and the game in general,  alienating to so many roleplayers.  The consensus is that this is a story game that doesn't work for traditional style roleplayers - and some of us happen to be Conan fans who are left out.

There is also disagreement on what we can do about it.  One could A) ignore it and play something else B) convert a system that is better suited for Roleplaying in the Hyborian Age (for which there is a general preference of RQ6/BRP across these threads) C) try to preform surgery on this game to make it work D) support the game as a source of adventures, ideas and pretty pictures. Also E) I sometimes think that Modiphius might do something to include the alienated group, the hope of which, keeps me coming back to these threads, but really, I am over it.

None of this is really any of your fault, problem or (perhaps) concern, and  hopefully, the above is more helpful than off-putting to you.  

QuoteIt is somewhat of a challenge to be told how the system fails to emulate the fiction of REH in one post, then in another post have the game dismissed because it apparently emulates the fiction of REH too closely.

I can't find where anyone who said that the game follows REH too closely but that is certainly not a majority opinion in these threads - there is no consensus of that here (and the plural of anecdote is not data).  Anyway, with a clear goal of staying as true to Howard as possible, I would think such abhorrent claims would not concern you.

QuoteI'm answering questions and trying to clarify misconceptions, in my role as the lead developer.

I admit that I have had a number of misconceptions myself.  I've been a difficult customer. Thanks, and best of luck.

Quote from: Jason D;884922I'm answering questions and trying to clarify misconceptions, in my role as the lead developer.

There are four separate and current threads on this forum about the game (or in response to it), and one has my name specifically in the thread title.

Would you prefer I ignored these threads?

Given how often you seem to reply:  Well, man, that's just YOUR opinion.  And the fact that 90% of the complaints on this site have been about things you cannot change (the system), you coming here is, frankly, a waste of your time.  And honestly, this thread was unfairly tagged with your name to begin with.

Truth be told, most of us still complaining are really, nothing more than a bunch of guys screaming at the wind for knocking down our house of cards.

Seriously, it's unfair to you!

Quote from: Jason D;884922It is somewhat of a challenge to be told how the system fails to emulate the fiction of REH in one post, then  in another post have the game dismissed because it apparently emulates the fiction of REH too closely.

It's a challenge because for a lot of us, because that's not even correct.  To US, it emulates Howardian story structure, not the fact that we get to mentally tromp around in Hyboria.

Quote from: Jason D;884922It should be apparent to anyone reading these different threads that there's no consensus on what system or approach is best, and I suspect that any approach will alienate some portion of the audience.

There's a good chunk of people who claim that a variation of Runequest is the best system.  That's a consensus.  Not one, I personally agree with, but there is one.

But really, at the end of the day, this thread is pointless.  What a lot of people want, you cannot give because the important decisions have been made, and it's up to US (not you) to suck it up like a princess.

And vote with our wallets.

Quote from: Jason D;884922It should be apparent to anyone reading these different threads that there's no consensus on what system or approach is best, and I suspect that any approach will alienate some portion of the audience.

Jason D, you have done a GREAT job communicating on this board and you deserve kudos. I know I wouldn't have had your patience.

And you're 100% right about the lack of consensus. Any approach will alienate some people. That's the nature of any creative exercise. There will never be a movie, song, painting, game or joke that everyone appreciates.

Best wishes with Conan the Forge-arian!

Quote from: Madprofessor;884989There is also disagreement on what we can do about it.

There are two choices regarding Conan 2D20. Buy it or don't buy it.

Like the 7th Sea KS, I see great value in the Conan KS offer, but just like 7th Sea, I can't see myself playing or enjoying Conan 2D20 so for me the choice is clear. And I'm a big fan of both 7th Sea and Conan.

And that's okay. I have 7th Sea 1e and I have access to many traditional RPG systems that do Swords & Sorcery just fine.

Also, I have the Conan boardgame KS coming which looks like its gonna scratch my Hyborean jock itch just fine.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Spinichcat
Jason D, you have done a GREAT job communicating on this board and you deserve kudos. I know I wouldn't have had your patience.

Agreed

QuoteAny approach will alienate some people.

True, but some approaches are more flexible than others, and it is possible to use multiple approaches.

QuoteAnd you're 100% right about the lack of consensus.

Oh, for cryin out loud. Really?  I was just trying to point out the patterns in the abundant complaints, sum up, and get some value and closure out of this thread.  I thought that might be helpful to a lead developer.  I guess you believe that there is no clear pattern here on these threads.  It's all just random complaints by random people with nothing in common and therefore nothing can be learned.

(Actually, to be fair, Jason did say that there is no consensus on "the best approach," which could mean to the gaming population in general, and I had argued that there is a consensus here on this site and among complaints found throughout the internet - and I think quite clearly that there is - bit those are slightly different points.  You may be correct about the general population, but I stand by my argument that there is a clear pattern and consensus to the complaints.)

QuoteAnd that's okay. I have 7th Sea 1e and I have access to many traditional RPG systems that do Swords & Sorcery just fine.

Also, I have the Conan boardgame KS coming which looks like its gonna scratch my Hyborean jock itch just fine.

I am glad you and your jock are happy.  Now, can I move on please?

QuoteBest wishes with Conan the Forge-arian!

That's friggin hilarious! :rotfl:

I may never let that die!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;885014And honestly, this thread was unfairly tagged with your name to begin with.

{Looks up at thread title}...this thread was never tagged with his name.  The one tagged with his name is the Questions for Jason thread, where people have been asking him questions about the game and he's answering (as well as some washover from the other threads).