pacific rim is a fantastic splat book. probably my fav of all the splatbooks (I think I have 99% of CP2020 books...)

Quote from: D-503;883113It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

Then again, I did that with Traveller too.

It really surprised me when I found out people thought the setting in 2020 was actually important and key to the game.

The few glances I've had of Cyberpunk made me think it was more like your take on it. Cyberpunk kitchen sink. Trim to get whatever style you want. Whereas 2030 seemed the exact opposite?

I used the shit out of Night City.

Sounds like they really fleshed it out with the setting books?

Quote from: D-503;883113It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

My friend took what he had in there and ran it as a sort of mish-mash of influences in terms of world verisimilitude: Bubblegum Crisis without the mecha suits, Nemesis, and Blade Runner and a para/military bent. I've always felt you've got enough there to do what you want as long as you have something in mind to add little details.

Night City was a great sandbox, though. Too bad the only person who ever ran it for me was a killer GM.

Quote from: Omega;883254Sounds like they really fleshed it out with the setting books?

I would say they took the obvious path of giving you a little metaplot, and then they fleshed out the obvious things that needed to be fleshed out within the limits of their small production staff.

And they did a pretty damn good job.

I took a re-read of Home of the Brave. It really is a good sandbox. They have to explain their future timeline to justify the reasons that the settings exists, and they do a fairly believable job. It's light on rules, but what rules they do have are rock-solid extrapolations of what already exist in the main book.

Which brings me to the Main Book for CP2020 - as I said earlier it is pretty light on setting (outside of Night City) they just give you a general timeline and brief highlights, outlining major players in the setting.

I've reconnected with how well crafted the CP2020 sandbox actually is. I've never cracked them open to look at them critically like this before (since I haven't run a CP game in over a decade). But in terms of content, between the Main Book and now, accounting for some of the ridiculously out-of-date tech, the concepts hold strong.

It made me realize that Home of the Brave (and the Night City sourcebook in particular - which Chris Brady, thank you for reminding me- was a *SUPERB* book. I can't believe I left it off my list. Old man Tenbones) - really gets to the crux of what CP2020 was "trying to model".

It's a dystopia where 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 10% of the population. Where the average American is eating what we'd consider high-grade dogfood. The Middle-class is nearly non-existent. 70% of the population is in poverty - 30% of the current population has *died* due to plague, war, and Martial Law. It's shitty out there kids.

I think the Main Book does a good job of modeling the cyberpunk life *within* a city. But the *VAST VAST VAST* majority of America, and likely the world, is like the Road Warrior+

What's intriguing to me - reading it with fresh eyes... I think the setting has become more interesting, and less stale (especially given our politics today). It needs some updating, but I think the game models solidly an entry-point where things could go either way for the PC's. I feel, after reading Home of the Brave - there is a SHIT-TON they could have done with the Nomad packs. It could probably support itself as a game in its own right, but there ARE some expansive rules and writeups for the Nomads - so they didn't just gloss it over.

I'm also pleased to see that many of the things we're fighting about today, concerning privacy and the possible issues of government over-reach were addressed in CP2020 as things that are inevitable with the collusion of corrupt government organizations along with their corporate masters. While it's not modeled perfectly, it's definitely eerily consistent.

Some of the interesting facts posited:

100,000,000 Americans die in a 15-year span due to violence, pestilence and starvation.

The United States have balkanized. In the main CP2020 book, it concerns itself mostly with California being NorCal and SoCal.  So many of the states themselves are almost like indepedent territories. That by itself is fodder for lots of gaming possibiltiies (smuggling, cross-state politics, etc.)

Most education for poor Americans consists of adults chipped with a topic and spewing it out IF that. That has lead to a brain-drain of epic-proportions, though the wealthy get real educations.

65% of the population lives in "Squalid Misery"

10% live in "Poverty"

15% live in "Middle-Class" - and most PC's are in this range. Average Salary with perks is about $16k - adjusted for Euros to Dollars.

10% are "Wealthy"

They cover how travel works. Dirigibles! and MagLevs.

There is a wealth of information on the "state of life"... and as bleak as it is, I'm cracking up with how much fluff detail they put into it. Taxes, lifestyles, education, division of labor, and info on those that are Zeroes (those with no government ID cards; nomads etc.) There is a lot of fodder here. They even get into religions and new emerging philosophies. None of which I found too unrealistic or even objectionable - but the book puts in a *lot* of plothooks (literally marked "PLOTHOOK") for their use - but they use it for other items in the book as well and they're all pretty well done.

Where the book really shines is the Government. They go in-depth on how the new American government works (I should also say they use comparative examples throughout the book on how America works vs. Europe - so it really sets the stage), including the Military which I think is the best part of the book.


So all in all. I think CP2020 by itself in the mainbook, is just a set of rules with a glossing snapshot of the high-level view of life in one city. If you want  to know what life is *really* like... Home of the Brave, Eurosource and Pacific Rim.

Together - I'd say it does a remarkably good job of creating a sandbox that can contain just about every cybpunk-trope one can imagine, without meta-plotting you into oblivion. This casual review of Home of the Brave has made me want to start digging through the rest of my books now...

I haven't run CP2020 in years, but tenbones' posts have me thinking about cracking open the books again.  We never really used the setting books until later, when I ran a Night City cops campaign...my earlier games centered on Silicon City, a San Jose that had been ravaged by an earthquake, leaving the rich to flock to their well-guarded towers and everyone else trying to scrabble out a living on the (broken) streets.  I had come up with the idea of durable boxes and shipping containers at some point, and an entire section of the downtown area was Box Town, with people living in these containers.

It's a game I really should revisit.

I lovingly remember my C-2020 game based out of Phoenix. The economic, cultural, and political surge from the New Phoenix Spaceport provided an excellent backdrop for adventures. There was a lot of trade travelling the maglevs between the Neo-Phoenix, Las Vegas, and San Angeles metroplexes. Lots of things to steal, people to smuggle, causes to champion.

The big opportunities came when the Rothschildes and Tsurtami families came down from Elysium Orbital to party. No one ever moved against them directly, you understand. But, all of the other players that orbited around them, oh, they were ripe pickings.

I had for my inspiration Near Orbit, The Millennium Project (A treatise on how to jump-start our way to near post-scarcity. Actually a rather interesting read.), and Night's Edge, which allowed me to put in some low grade psychic powers. I was having humans begin the next evolutionary leap, and some people had low grade telekinesis, foresight, telepathy, and empathic healing. You had to be veeerrrry quiet about them, otherwise the Men in Black would take you away to an installation built on a dry lakebed.

Pondsmith also worked on TSR's Buck Rogers XXVc about 2 years later. Or about the same time as 2020. They both came out in 1990.

I hope Cyberpunk 2077 makes a ton of money, Mike deserves a big payday for decades of fun.

Quote from: D-503;883113It's funny, back when I ran cyberpunk 2020 it never occurred to me to use the published setting (which I thought godawful). I took it as a generic cyberpunk rag and made my own settings.

Then again, I did that with Traveller too.

That certainly is one way to approach those two. There is another, too, however.

QuoteOne thing I do think the book got really very badly wrong was actually quite central - style over substance. I would say that's about as close to the opposite of cyberpunk as it could be. Cyberpunk is all about utility - the street finds its own uses for things. I can't think of a single cyberpunk source from the period where the characters emphasised stuff looking good over how it worked. It always seemed to me a massive misreading of the genre.

Well, that is a central point not only in cyberpunk:). I mean, take swashbuckling. What is more true to the spirit of swashbuckling? Is it a flashy jump in a desperate duel on the rooftops, or sneaking a dagger between the ribs of your enemy on a dirty street? Relentless practicality or doing things that can kill you, because you believe you should, and not because you expect a reward?
And just as in cyberpunk, the answer is "yes".

Quote from: tenbones;883317I would say they took the obvious path of giving you a little metaplot, and then they fleshed out the obvious things that needed to be fleshed out within the limits of their small production staff.

And they did a pretty damn good job.
(snipped)

It's a dystopia where 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 10% of the population. Where the average American is eating what we'd consider high-grade dogfood. The Middle-class is nearly non-existent. 70% of the population is in poverty - 30% of the current population has *died* due to plague, war, and Martial Law. It's shitty out there kids.

I think the Main Book does a good job of modeling the cyberpunk life *within* a city. But the *VAST VAST VAST* majority of America, and likely the world, is like the Road Warrior+

What's intriguing to me - reading it with fresh eyes... I think the setting has become more interesting, and less stale (especially given our politics today). It needs some updating, but I think the game models solidly an entry-point where things could go either way for the PC's. I feel, after reading Home of the Brave - there is a SHIT-TON they could have done with the Nomad packs. It could probably support itself as a game in its own right, but there ARE some expansive rules and writeups for the Nomads - so they didn't just gloss it over.

I'm also pleased to see that many of the things we're fighting about today, concerning privacy and the possible issues of government over-reach were addressed in CP2020 as things that are inevitable with the collusion of corrupt government organizations along with their corporate masters. While it's not modeled perfectly, it's definitely eerily consistent.

Some of the interesting facts posited:

100,000,000 Americans die in a 15-year span due to violence, pestilence and starvation.

The United States have balkanized. In the main CP2020 book, it concerns itself mostly with California being NorCal and SoCal.  So many of the states themselves are almost like indepedent territories. That by itself is fodder for lots of gaming possibiltiies (smuggling, cross-state politics, etc.)

Most education for poor Americans consists of adults chipped with a topic and spewing it out IF that. That has lead to a brain-drain of epic-proportions, though the wealthy get real educations.

65% of the population lives in "Squalid Misery"

10% live in "Poverty"

15% live in "Middle-Class" - and most PC's are in this range. Average Salary with perks is about $16k - adjusted for Euros to Dollars.

10% are "Wealthy"

They cover how travel works. Dirigibles! and MagLevs.

There is a wealth of information on the "state of life"... and as bleak as it is, I'm cracking up with how much fluff detail they put into it. Taxes, lifestyles, education, division of labor, and info on those that are Zeroes (those with no government ID cards; nomads etc.) There is a lot of fodder here. They even get into religions and new emerging philosophies. None of which I found too unrealistic or even objectionable - but the book puts in a *lot* of plothooks (literally marked "PLOTHOOK") for their use - but they use it for other items in the book as well and they're all pretty well done.

Where the book really shines is the Government. They go in-depth on how the new American government works (I should also say they use comparative examples throughout the book on how America works vs. Europe - so it really sets the stage), including the Military which I think is the best part of the book.


So all in all. I think CP2020 by itself in the mainbook, is just a set of rules with a glossing snapshot of the high-level view of life in one city. If you want  to know what life is *really* like... Home of the Brave, Eurosource and Pacific Rim.

Together - I'd say it does a remarkably good job of creating a sandbox that can contain just about every cybpunk-trope one can imagine, without meta-plotting you into oblivion. This casual review of Home of the Brave has made me want to start digging through the rest of my books now...

Well, the Euro book has some issues;). But I agree, the problem with CP2020 and FWTD (which I tend to mine for setting content no matter which one we're playing) is not in how much they're getting wrong. The problem is, it seems they might be getting way too many things right.
And these are not the kind of games I'd like to consider an accurate prediction, or even a semi-accurate prediction.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883460I hope Cyberpunk 2077 makes a ton of money, Mike deserves a big payday for decades of fun.

I only found out CP2020 relatively recently, so not yet a decade - but I concur.

So, there I was shaking my head at the direction this thread had gone, and Tenbones came and pulled it back out of the fire with his excellent breakdown of the books.

Ah... I love 2020, but alas I've never found a GM, and as a GM I've never got a 2020 game to really jell, they all fell apart during the first session.

I think the curious thing is how Cyberpunk and Shadowrun together ended up not so much modeling 'cyberpunk' fiction, but becoming the default stereotype of what we think of as the Cyberpunk genre!

They did this by utilizing elements already in the genre, of course. But Cyberpunk the RPG, or Shadowrun (without the magic) are, today, more like what people typically think of as 'cyberpunk' than anything Gibson ever wrote.

Quote from: RPGPundit;885507I think the curious thing is how Cyberpunk and Shadowrun together ended up not so much modeling 'cyberpunk' fiction, but becoming the default stereotype of what we think of as the Cyberpunk genre!

They did this by utilizing elements already in the genre, of course. But Cyberpunk the RPG, or Shadowrun (without the magic) are, today, more like what people typically think of as 'cyberpunk' than anything Gibson ever wrote.

And here I thought Johnny Mnemonic, the movie, not the short story, was the gold standard for Cyberpunk misconceptions.

I think, more than anything, Blade runner has had an influence on the popular presentation  of cyberpunk. probably followed by the matrix, and then anime like gits.

given how niche rpgs are, I wouldn't attribute popular conceptions of cyberpunk  directly to them.