QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
When I began working with the 2d20 system, I had concerns that it was actually too crunchy, but in the course of actually demo-ing the game and playing it, I've been relieved to see that it plays well and is easy to teach.

I agree that the game seems a lot crunchier in the reading than it does in play.  Weapon effects are little crunchy but they are entirely appropriate for milieu.  Doom and momentum are uncomfortable for my groups' playstyles, and perhaps a little fiddly overall because they are constantly in use - but they're not crunchy.  My veteran group has put the game as we have seen it thus far in the "squishy" category.  

QuoteIn "Beyond the Black River", REH had a relatively-green woodsman with no apparent experience battling Picts (prior to the events of that story), fighting alongside an injured dog, account for more than nine Pict savages on the warpath, before falling in battle.

I'll stop this line of questioning, but I partially disagree with this approach to interpreting the story and REH's story telling.  The fear and danger that the Picts pose is heart pounding and palpable in Howard's writing, you can't get players to feel that with mechanically gimped Picts, or at least I couldn't.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883261I'll stop this line of questioning, but I partially disagree with this approach to interpreting the story and REH's story telling.  The fear and danger that the Picts pose is heart pounding and palpable in Howard's writing, you can't get players to feel that with mechanically gimped Picts, or at least I couldn't.

I'm not telling anyone they need to drop any line of questioning.

Since the quickstart was explicitly designed to be approachable for new GMs and players, handing a massive combat with up to 15 combatants (and more for the 2nd farmhouse encounter) seemed to be a bit much to ask.  

Some GMs really thrive on combats that take hours to resolve, but for us, that's the very antithesis of fast-paced, pulp adventure.

We have also had GMs report that the adventure was a meatgrinder, almost resulting in TPKs, so apparently, one size does not fit all.

In the unlikely event you pick up the game and want to give it a try, there's nothing stopping you from using the writeup for individual Picts and ignoring the mob and minion rules entirely. Published adventures will likely make use of these rules when appropriate, but it should require no effort whatsoever to alter these encounters to suit the GM's individual taste.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883261I'll stop this line of questioning, but I partially disagree with this approach to interpreting the story and REH's story telling.  The fear and danger that the Picts pose is heart pounding and palpable in Howard's writing, you can't get players to feel that with mechanically gimped Picts, or at least I couldn't.

What it comes down to Professor is that we're at the "only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise", yet it takes 3 movies for them to even hit a protagonist point.

There's no doubt that making savages and barbarians "Mooks" runs counter to Howard's theme of the Barbarian vs. Civilized men.  It's also true that Howard gave Balthus protagonist status to tell a good tale.

Laws of the Setting vs. Laws of the Tale.  It's just something you have to deal with when you take a RPG into genre-modeling territory whether that be 007, Star Wars, or Conan.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jason D
Since the quickstart was explicitly designed to be approachable for new GMs and players, handing a massive combat with up to 15 combatants (and more for the 2nd farmhouse encounter) seemed to be a bit much to ask.

Some GMs really thrive on combats that take hours to resolve, but for us, that's the very antithesis of fast-paced, pulp adventure.

Thanks for this very fair and reasonable explanation. I get it.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
We have also had GMs report that the adventure was a meatgrinder, almost resulting in TPKs, so apparently, one size does not fit all.

I am a little surprised at this.  Of course, my biggest criticism from players is that as a GM is that I am a bit of a softy and I root for the PCs too much.  Looking back, I probably pulled some punches in my playtest that I shouldn't have.

QuoteOriginally Posted by CRKrueger
"only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise"

Perfect Analogy!

QuoteOriginally Posted by Jason D
In the unlikely event you pick up the game and want to give it a try, there's nothing stopping you from using the writeup for individual Picts and ignoring the mob and minion rules entirely. Published adventures will likely make use of these rules when appropriate, but it should require no effort whatsoever to alter these encounters to suit the GM's individual taste.

I know some of my posts have come across as antagonistic, and you sometimes seem to think that I am in attack mode, or have me pegged as a rabid simulationist or something, but I really am just trying wrap my head around the game.  It's not comfortable to unlearn a lifetime of play, and many people here would say it's foolish to try.

Regardless, I likely will pick up all of the books (I don't like PDFs) and give the game a real try.  I am skeptical that it will ever become my serious RPG system of choice, but it might make a great change of pace, and I will at least enjoy the writing and the art.

I'm pretty much only interested in the setting and art stuff.  I own more than one system that I think will do a fine job of handling Conan.  I get that system-less books typically don't sell well and having a wife who is a graphic designer I get that extra layout isn't totally free, but is there any chance of a pdf with just the setting and art bits?

I recall someone else asked for this as well, but I didn't see an answer, so my apologies if I missed it.

Quote from: Brander;883295I'm pretty much only interested in the setting and art stuff.  I own more than one system that I think will do a fine job of handling Conan.  I get that system-less books typically don't sell well and having a wife who is a graphic designer I get that extra layout isn't totally free, but is there any chance of a pdf with just the setting and art bits?

I recall someone else asked for this as well, but I didn't see an answer, so my apologies if I missed it.

There are no plans for a systemless version of the game.

Quote from: One Horse Town;883086I wonder how Asen's garden grows?

I work on my own garden, as I should.
No, there's no weeds in it.
...or in other words, WTF does that have to do with the conversation.

Quote from: Jason D;883228I get that it's not to everyone's tastes, but honestly, the range of opinions expressed in this very thread indicate that there is no consensus on the one true way to game in the Hyborian Age setting.

There's only 2 ways that I know of to have a one true way to game in a given setting.
First, make the setting so tightly interwoven with the system that there's no difference.
Second, take a setting whose only fan is you, and play in it;). Obviously not the case with Hyboria.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883032You could just save yourself the time and cut and paste this every time.
It would save you the trouble of figuring out how to argue the opposite of anything I say about anything.

Read again, CRK. I am attacking your opinion on how to translate the Hyborian setting, not any setting:).

QuoteBut, I get the feeling you're going to keep going, so let's try this one.

There was a delay due to work, sleep and hobby time. But I try not to disappoint people:D!

QuoteHow do you feel that tiers made up of...
(snipped)
Models anything except a story?

Easy. Let me address the tiers one by one. Fun fact: the lowest tier requires the most granularity, because there's so little skill in participants, even slight differences make a big difference.

Quote

• Aquilonian civilians armed with weapons who somehow aren't even represented in a system.(not sure how you'd accomplish that)

Easy. If they get attacked, and don't have proper motivation and time to prepare, I make a check. Should they fail, they scatter and some might get overrun in the chase - even if they had better skills. Should they fail badly, they freeze and it gets tough.
Done. Psychology matters more than skill and attributes, and this approach (which I devised for Fates Worse Than Death, where RBSD stuff is king) actually reflects that.
Should they succeed, they get to fight as Mob of Minions. It's likely they'd still have lower Skill than a Pict, on account of experience, and definitely have lower Attributes (on account of the Pict having a harder life). But it might actually be civilian fencers which would have higher skill, lower attributes, and would still have no use for their skill unless they pass the Morale/Willpower test.

Picts, pirates, streetfighters, average mercenaries and trained recruits wouldn't need to pass that check to initiate hostilities or to return them. That, in itself, is obviously a tremendous advantage.
To differentiate between them, you'd have just small stuff - Attributes, Skills and the like...which is exactly how you'd differentiate between them when running RQ6/Mythras:D!

Quote

• Anything in between said civilians and the "Best of the Best"

Minions, in 2d20, seem to be a good fit. Picts of above average ability would be that, as would be Aquilonian Knights, green Spartan troops and experienced mercenaries. Look again: those can fight a unit by themselves (though they're likely to lose).

Quote

• The Best of the Best (which isn't all that great then the last tier)

Elites, right? Elites.
Mercenaries with extensive experience, famous Pictish warriors, average Spartans.

• PCs (who, despite background and history are 2.5 times tougher than the Best of the Best for no other reason other than the Name Text flying above their head is White and the symbol shining next to it means "I am the Protagonist, therefore I am better!")

And PC-level NPCs, I guess.
These are just people with a knack for violence, and on whom the gods smiled. No contradiction there.

QuoteYou actually think those classes of being would be a good way of modeling any world?

The world we live in is perfectly easy to express in those terms - see the first tier: that's what happens most of the time.
Of course, reality is both more and less granular than RPG systems, so no system is a perfect fit.

Quote from: Madprofessor;883034I hate to get in the middle of this argument, but AsenRG, this is completely contradictory to the source material.  It looks to me that you are just contriving arguments about relativity to twist REH's vision into something it was never meant to be so that it will fit the game.

Shrug. I really can't do anything for your perception, Madprofessor. I can only tell you that I have no interest in doing that.

QuoteA MAJOR theme in REH was the contrast between men who were schooled in the savage, dangerous wilderness and those who lived in the soft luxury of civilization.  Your effort to make up reasons why dockworkers should be just as dangerous as Picts amounts to re-writing Howard to fit the game rather than an explanation of how the game fits Howard.

Ask yourself, how would you express the difference between Picts and Aquilonian civilians in a game with only one kind of enemies. Then ask yourself whether you don't have those tools in 2d20...
Having those tools, and "tiers of being used to violence" can't really hurt the characterization, methinks;).

Quote from: Jason D;883306There are no plans for a systemless version of the game.

Well, now, that officially sucks!

Quote from: AsenRG;883352Well, now, that officially sucks!

It's no different than any other game really, if it was systemless, it wouldn't even be a game, it would just be a supplement of the Hyborian world. They might not even have a license to do that.

I'm not using SIFRP for Westeros, but I buy the stuff anyway, it's a "license tax".  They paid for the license so they get to charge me extra for rules I won't use.

Of course, according to the shotgunless one, I'm really just luring Modiphius in with a false sense of security, before I reveal I'm really the secret majority stockholder in CPI and I'm pulling the license because they didn't do it in RQ6. :pundit:

'Cause, you know, I'm not known for just telling people to go fuck themselves and their mother if I don't like them or anything.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883357It's no different than any other game really, if it was systemless, it wouldn't even be a game, it would just be a supplement of the Hyborian world.

Tekumel has systemless sourcebooks. They're still for a game, but I love them as books.
Really, REH wrote his essay on The Hyborian World in a form much like what I'd want of a systemless supplement.

Besides, it is what many people here seemed to want. I would have considered going for physical book pledge on that, too:).
I restrict the RPG books in my library...so I'd have more space for books, especially non-fiction;).

QuoteThey might not even have a license to do that.

Too bad if that's the case.
But even if it's the case, I still don't have to like it. I just get to think it's their lawyers' fault;).

QuoteI'm not using SIFRP for Westeros, but I buy the stuff anyway, it's a "license tax".  They paid for the license so they get to charge me extra for rules I won't use.

I know you're joking, but I didn't say they can't include the license tax in the price of a systemless supplement, did I?

QuoteOf course, according to the shotgunless one, I'm really just luring Modiphius in with a false sense of security, before I reveal I'm really the secret majority stockholder in CPI and I'm pulling the license because they didn't do it in RQ6. :pundit:

Well, are you:p?

Quote'Cause, you know, I'm not known for just telling people to go fuck themselves and their mother if I don't like them or anything.

You? Who would think you could possibly say something like that?
I mean, it could hurt someone's feelings:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;883352I work on my own garden, as I should.
No, there's no weeds in it.
...or in other words, WTF does that have to do with the conversation.

I believe it was meant as an indirect means of describing you as (quite) contrarian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%2C_Mary%2C_Quite_Contrary

Quote from: CRKrueger;883357I'm not using SIFRP for Westeros, but I buy the stuff anyway, it's a "license tax".  They paid for the license so they get to charge me extra for rules I won't use.

Tangent. How do they perform as setting sources?

Quote from: The Butcher;883401Tangent. How do they perform as setting sources?

If you want to play a Song of Ice and Fire game but don't want to use SIFR, I strongly advise that you get the SIFR Campaign Guide, it contains a lot of setting info but very little system info, so it's perfect if you want to run a game using a different system. In fact, I wish Modiphius had taken the same approach (one corebook with the rules, and another one with the setting info) that Green Ronin took with SIFR.

Quote from: The Butcher;883401Tangent. How do they perform as setting sources?

Very good.  Everything is cleared (which is why it takes forever), but combine those with the Atlas, you've got some awesome campaign tools.

I really feel bad for GR, they put out two of the best new systems, but because of IP approval, they moved at such a glacial pace they were never able to get much momentum.  

People who like narrative systems like Fate or 2d20 but not all the metapoint back and forth? SIFRP/Chronicles might be your system, but who knows about it?

People who want Fast, Furious and Fun, without the weight of Savage Worlds and Bennie Economies, or Barbarians of Lemuria with a little bit of meat on the bones?  Dragon Age/AGE might fit your bill.

Quote from: CRKrueger;883432(...) Barbarians of Lemuria with a little bit of meat on the bones?  Dragon Age/AGE might fit your bill.

Just curious, what is your opinion on BoL? In your opinion, could it be used to run a half-decent Conan game?

Quote from: nDervish;883398I believe it was meant as an indirect means of describing you as (quite) contrarian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%2C_Mary%2C_Quite_Contrary

Ah, thanks - no way I could understand that, as this isn't a nursery rhyme I've ever heard:).
And to this, I still prefer to answer "everyone should care about his own garden".

Quote from: CRKrueger;883432Very good.  Everything is cleared (which is why it takes forever), but combine those with the Atlas, you've got some awesome campaign tools.

I really feel bad for GR, they put out two of the best new systems, but because of IP approval, they moved at such a glacial pace they were never able to get much momentum.  

People who like narrative systems like Fate or 2d20 but not all the metapoint back and forth? SIFRP/Chronicles might be your system, but who knows about it?

People who want Fast, Furious and Fun, without the weight of Savage Worlds and Bennie Economies, or Barbarians of Lemuria with a little bit of meat on the bones?  Dragon Age/AGE might fit your bill.

I'm not sure I like SIFRP. It might be because the GM I tested it with had an issue, I believe, with the very idea of narrative systems. Worse, he didn't want to admit it.

But Fantasy Age is indeed an unpolished gem. If only the huge number of HP didn't make fights last forever - which is my personal gripe!

Quote from: 3rik;883466Just curious, what is your opinion on BoL? In your opinion, could it be used to run a half-decent Conan game?

Half-decent? No. It has to be a decent one with BoL, or you're using it wrong!
In other words, it's probably the best lightweight non-narrative system for S&S that I know of. And I happen to know quite a few, believe me:D!
The best lightweight narrative one is On Mighty Thews, if you're wondering;).