Quote from: CRKrueger;882762Picts and Cimmerians earned that right by surviving to adulthood in the harshest and most brutal environments and cultures in the world.

Nope, they don't. What they do earn is the right and ability to fight, sneak and intimidate, not break when faced with naked steel, and be dangerous even to veterans. But veterans still tend to slay them.
Think of these people as street fighters, something Howard was familiar with. Do they get to smash any "civilised", trained but inexperienced fighter? There's good odds that they would overwhelm him, yes, not to mention a "civilian".
Are they going to hold against SWAT members, or someone like Jack Dempsey, in an equal fight? Almost no chances of that.
(Yes, I know Dempsey was called a savage. That's boxing promoting. I've got at least one of his books, and his theory is deeper and more logical than some Eastern theories I'm familiar with. And might be stated to require more thinking, too).

And Jack Dempsey is who you should think of if you want a physical representation of Conan.

QuoteThat's only because you've completely missed the entire point of Howard's "Barbarian vs. Civilization" theme, which is only present in...oh, most of Conan and Kull.

Nope, I haven't missed anything. Average Picts against average Aquilonians, no contest.

BTW, Conan is still exceptional among Northerners, too. As evidenced in, say, "The Frost-Giant's Daughter".

QuoteA young savage or barbarian, on his very first warparty, that's maybe a minion.  The default Pict, or default Cimmerian, you may as well say the default Spartan is a minion, it's equally inane.

Spartans are a special case, in that they went out of school as veterans. But they were training all their lives, which was provided for by the work of helots - a luxury neither Cimmerians nor Picts would have.
And yet, go and check how many Olympic medals Spartans have earned in wrestling, boxing or pancration;).

Quote from: Jason D;882764So then how did a young Bossonian woodsman with no kills to his name take out at least nine of these guys? Did Slasher do all the work?

Yes, that's more or less my logic.

Quote from: CRKrueger;8827701. You'd have to show me where Howard says Balthus has no kills to his name before he entered Conajohara, because I sure can't find it.

His behaviour when confronted with Picts prior to his death proves that.

Quote2. He wasn't unblooded at that final battle, since he had killed Picts with Conan earlier.

Which is why he got to die a hero. He got the speed course in stress innoculation.

Quote3. If we're assuming 9, Slasher did kill 3 of those 9 by himself before the fight started, so we're back to 2 vs. 6 (but by the time the fight was at the end, more Picts had probably arrived from Tuscelan).

...seriously? You think that he and his dog might have killed 6 experienced combatants in hand-to-hand combat?
No. Just no. Go and re-read the story. Veteran Balthus wasn't, though he died a hero. And that fits a Texan narrative of the time, for all I can tell - a man rises to the situation when confronted with it.

Quote4. Slasher and Balthus were working together with their backs to a stand of logs.

So what? If Picts were as great warriors as you believe them to be, maybe 1 pict would have died, and another couple would have been wounded, in the final hand-to-hand fight.

Quote5. Of course the most important thing is this:

Your contention is that Picts as minions or even worse, a Mob of minions accurately models Beyond the Black River, but in Nathan's own combat example here's the comparison...

Beyond the Black River - 2 kill 6 and both die.
Combat Example using Minions - 3 kill 8 without a scratch.

Now, I'm not exactly sure I would call that a satisfying representation, would you...really?

And mechanically, Jason D already stated that Balthus isn't a starting character. He's good material for one. Starting characters are Young Conan, Young Juma, and their likes.

Quote from: AsenRG;882781Nope, I haven't missed anything. Average Picts against average Aquilonians, no contest.

Actually, you're pretty much missing that you just made my point for me.  Thanks by the way.

The representation you are supporting...
Picts (Mob of Minions) vs. Aquilonians (Mob of Minions)
Hmm, seems like that would be a contest in the 2d20 system.

Where as the representation I am supporting...
Picts (Elites) vs. Aquilonians (Mob of Minions)
Would be more like the "no contest" you yourself are describing.

Picts as Minions does not model BtBR as the designers combat example itself shows.

Picts as Minions does not even model your own statement.

You like Mooks. Got it.  Move past the point where you blindly attack everything I say against narrative and realize I'm done saying they shouldn't exist, we're now talking about their application considering that in this game, they do exist.

I should also point out that the Picts in the quickstart may not match up with those in the final core book.

A TPK in the first published adventure is not a particularly great way to sell the game line to newcomers, and we've already gotten a number of players commenting about how difficult/harrowing the scenario is, as published.

Quote from: Jason D;882793I should also point out that the Picts in the quickstart may not match up with those in the final core book.

A TPK in the first published adventure is not a particularly great way to sell the game line to newcomers, and we've already gotten a number of players commenting about how difficult/harrowing the scenario is, as published.

One of my players drew Wife Aggro yesterday, so we decided to put it off until tonight.  Since I'm lucky enough to have the day off, I'm going to run the three tests with a friend today, then run the adventure tonight and see how it goes.

To be fair, combat examples aren't necessarily known for giving the most accurate representation if the numbers are hand-picked to show specific examples, and I don't know what type of example it was meant to be.

Edit: The Chakan looks brutal, but any single opponent can be wolfpacked.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882787Actually, you're pretty much missing that you just made my point for me.  Thanks by the way.

The representation you are supporting...
Picts (Mob of Minions) vs. Aquilonians (Mob of Minions)
Hmm, seems like that would be a contest in the 2d20 system.

Le sigh.
Man, the difference is that these would be Picts (mob of random picts) vs. Aquilonians (green recruits fresh out of basic camp). That's not "Picts vs Aquilonian civilians".

QuoteWhere as the representation I am supporting...
Picts (Elites) vs. Aquilonians (Mob of Minions)
Would be more like the "no contest" you yourself are describing.

No. Picts (Elites) is the best of the best of the Picts, and it's no contest vs. green Aquilonian recruits. But against green recruits, it would be a normal contest.
The difference is, Picts would outmatch the Aquilonians in individual combat. But at army level, the Aquilonians would be at least equal.
The difference is, of course, that not every Aquilonian has been a recruit...while every single Pict, has been a Pict all his life;).

QuotePicts as Minions does not even model your own statement.

It does model my statement. Except not all Aquilonians get to count even as Minions.

QuoteYou like Mooks. Got it.

No, not really - I dislike it for aesthetic reasons.
But they are a handy way to represent a step in being used to combat. Not necessarily technically good at it, although it often follows, but used to it. The distinction is important, and a single number in combat skill doesn't represent it well, IMO.

QuoteMove past the point where you blindly attack everything I say against narrative and realize I'm done saying they shouldn't exist, we're now talking about their application considering that in this game, they do exist.

I wasn't attacking your ideas about the narrative level of the mechanics. I was attacking your ideas about translating the setting into mechanics - any mechanics;).

You have read the Quickstart, right?

Mob of Minions (1 wound each) - Lowest form of enemy
Minions (1 wound) - Same as Mob, but at least can't be cut down enmass with a single attack.
Elites (2 wounds) - "Hardened Foe" according to the QS
PC level (5 wounds) - "Mighty Foe" according to the QS

The Panther, Chakan, and Anavenagar the Pict are Mighty Foes.  Anavenagar is the best of the best of the Picts, and you can argue he's not even that since we know for sure he's not Zogar Sag level just like the PCs aren't Conan level.

Elites are far from the Best of the Best they're basically just "not the worst there is".

The problem is if Pict warriors are Mobs of Minions, then what are sailors, street thugs, dockworkers, and other enemies?

You put Pict warriors on the bottom of your Narrative Tree of Dramatically Important Lifeforms, you have nowhere to go below that.

There's no room for Zamoran pimp with his 4 street toughs.

Quote from: AsenRG;882803I wasn't attacking your ideas about the narrative level of the mechanics. I was attacking your ideas about translating the setting into mechanics - any mechanics;).

As a fencer do you get any personal satisfaction from beating people who never picked up a weapon before?  Kinda sounds like your characters or players do.

BTW, about the whole "Balthus is a young pup who isn't close to a PC".  Balthus is a young man, but a seasoned tracker, trained probably by his family like most people in the wilderness are.  Who is Balthus's family?  Oh well, his uncle was one of the few survivors of Venarium...probably didn't teach his nephew anything, just spun yarns all day.

Compare with...
Born in the Westermarck, the region running between the Black River and Aquilonia, Lucina has seen the steady increase of settlements and the traffic of Aquilonia's advance into Pictish territory. She  has also seen firsthand the effects of the Pict's response, a trespass met with blood and fire. Trained in herbalism and a tradition of magical arts by her mother - a hedge witch—Lucina knows a few tricks and has used them to keep herself and her flock alive.

Adelstan's father was a knight in service to Aquilonia, killed in one of King Numedides' many border wars with Zingara, and his mother, a noble's handmaiden who died in childbirth. Thus orphaned, Adelstan was fostered as a squire, learning the way of mounted horsemanship, chivalry, and armed combat. With little but his war-gear, Adelstan has come to the Aquilonian border to make a name for himself, so that he can return to more civilized lands and earn some sort of rank or title.  

The youngest son of a wealthy aquilonian family, Petrus came into his inheritance just as his elder siblings finished gambling it away. With little to his name, he set off to the Westermark and the Bossonian Marches, where King Numedides of Aquilonia is giving away land to his barons. Though trained in the ways of war, Petrus is far more suited as a diplomat and a leader. Mitra willing, he will command a noble house one day, perhaps as a baron or greater. Currently, Petrus has found employ as hired mercenary at the edge of Pictland.

Wow, those are some hard-bitten killers.  Death on two legs.

Combat Test 1. Straight out of the example (2 groups of 1 Elite with a 3 Minion Mob.).
Results, 3 PCs vaporized the 8 Picts.  No Wounds taken. No Fortune spent.

Combat Test 2.  Changed Mobs to single Minions (had to give them two dice instead of one, otherwise they are useless unmobbed.)
Results, 3 PCs took longer to kill the 8 Picts, and one of them took one Wound.  No Fortune spent.

Combat Test 3.  Made all 8 Picts Elites.
Results, 3 PCs beat the 8 Picts, 2 of them taking one wound, one of them taking two wounds.  2 PCs spent 1 Fortune, 1 Spent 2.

Elites are far from "PC Killers" even in numbers, they just put up a decent fight.

Will be starting the adventure in a while...

QuoteJust thought I would post this:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/1507416

Wow, this is awesome.  Kull is overdue for an RPG treatment.  REH didn't write much though, and what there is was kinda trippy.  Seems like it would be difficult to translate.  I'm interested in seeing what you guys can come up with.

CRK, the combat analysis is pretty damn helpful to me as I wrap my brain around the system and try to figure out how to make it work.  In both my tests the PCs obliterated the Picts as well. It seems like what they call "elites" would make a pretty typical adversary.  I could even see scaling "elite" Picts or other powerful foes up with another wound or slightly higher skills (easily done). Another option might be to scale PCs down but this might introduce larger complications.  Being outnumbered by Picts nearly 3 to 1 in their own territory should be cause for fear for any PC.  At least, that's how I see it.  Anyway, much appreciated.

Quote from: Jason D;882793I should also point out that the Picts in the quickstart may not match up with those in the final core book.

A TPK in the first published adventure is not a particularly great way to sell the game line to newcomers, and we've already gotten a number of players commenting about how difficult/harrowing the scenario is, as published.

Are there different level or quality of "mooks" or is it a binary situation: a character is either a Mook or built as a PC?

Quote from: Nexus;882964Are there different level or quality of "mooks" or is it a binary situation: a character is either a Mook or built as a PC?

PCs roll 2d20 for checks and have 5 wounds.  Mighty Foes are PC level.
Elites, or Hardened Foes roll 2d20 and have 2 wounds.
Minions roll 1d20 and have 1 wound, but they can form a mob, which adds their dice and wounds into a big pile.

Bigger than PC hasn't been described yet.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882811You have read the Quickstart, right?

Mob of Minions (1 wound each) - Lowest form of enemy
Minions (1 wound) - Same as Mob, but at least can't be cut down enmass with a single attack.
Elites (2 wounds) - "Hardened Foe" according to the QS
PC level (5 wounds) - "Mighty Foe" according to the QS

The Panther, Chakan, and Anavenagar the Pict are Mighty Foes.  Anavenagar is the best of the best of the Picts, and you can argue he's not even that since we know for sure he's not Zogar Sag level just like the PCs aren't Conan level.

Elites are far from the Best of the Best they're basically just "not the worst there is".

The problem is if Pict warriors are Mobs of Minions, then what are sailors, street thugs, dockworkers, and other enemies?

You put Pict warriors on the bottom of your Narrative Tree of Dramatically Important Lifeforms, you have nowhere to go below that.

There's no room for Zamoran pimp with his 4 street toughs.

Street toughs would be exactly "mobs of minions". Compared to the average citizen, namely "civilian", they might as well be Picts.
You know, I assume a street tough grew up in the harsh conditions created by civilisation, and lived to become an adult by being meaner and tougher than those that found an early grave:).

Sailors are just pushed by desperation if they fight a PC. Dockworkers might count as street toughs, or sailors.

Quote from: CRKrueger;882812As a fencer do you get any personal satisfaction from beating people who never picked up a weapon before?

When I was training in an unarmed style, I was taught that the most dangerous enemy is a novice. Not the hardest, the most dangerous. Weapons don't change that, they just make it slightly harder for people to win with brawn-based tactics.
So no, I wouldn't feel it's a fencing accomplishment to beat one of those.

QuoteKinda sounds like your characters or players do.

Some of my characters might, indeed. Depends on what said person had done to deserve it, though:D!

You could just save yourself the time and cut and paste this every time.

Quote from: AsenRG;882803I was attacking your ideas about translating the setting into mechanics - any mechanics;).

It would save you the trouble of figuring out how to argue the opposite of anything I say about anything.

But, I get the feeling you're going to keep going, so let's try this one.

How do you feel that tiers made up of...

• Aquilonian civilians armed with weapons who somehow aren't even represented in a system.(not sure how you'd accomplish that)
• Anything in between said civilians and the "Best of the Best"
• The Best of the Best (which isn't all that great then the last tier)
• PCs (who, despite background and history are 2.5 times tougher than the Best of the Best for no other reason other than the Name Text flying above their head is White and the symbol shining next to it means "I am the Protagonist, therefore I am better!")

Models anything except a story? You actually think those classes of being would be a good way of modeling any world?

I would like to point out that minions, just like player characters, are rated with Attributes, Fields of Expertise, Stress and Soak, and have their own Talents, and that different groups of minions will have different team tactics.

Additionally, the GM's use of the Doom pool can turn a a group of minions from apparently pushovers into deadly threat to the player characters.