Are you REALLY saying that you need a rule to tell you that special inks are only available in places where special inks are available?

Just let them do whatever they want without restrictions or limits, they are wizards after all.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;878061Are you REALLY saying that you need a rule to tell you that special inks are only available in places where special inks are available?

Well if you just read the ability it doesn't say anything about that. If you were just a player reading that what would make you think you need anything but some spare time and 50gp?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878065Well if you just read the ability it doesn't say anything about that. If you were just a player reading that what would make you think you need anything but some spare time and 50gp?

Dood, it's Gronan, he's just here to spout that his way is the right way, because that's how he's been playing it since he was at Gygax's table.

er. The part where it says you need to spend 50gp per spell level in components  to experiment and special inks to write it down? You even quoted it at the start?

QuoteFor each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it.

This is stuff that must be bought somewhere. That is what the 50/level cost represents. You dont just toss 50 gold in the air and poof! The characters are going to have to trudge into a town or city and look up the materials. Or have prepped beforehand and bought materials before setting off.

Seems like you are reading the entry too literally? Or not literally enough? Its hard to tell.

Addendum: Move down to the backup and replacement spellbook section. Are you also assuming that the book just appears from nowhere because it doesnt say "go out and buy one"?

Well, I don't understand why it says you need to use 50gp then. Or why it doesn't mention you need to have these materials beforehand. Why not just say "you need to use 50gp worth of ink and X Y and Z to do it."

The way it's written makes it sound like you throw up the 50gp and poof, there's your spell.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878072Well, I don't understand why it says you need to use 50gp then. Or why it doesn't mention you need to have these materials beforehand. Why not just say "you need to use 50gp worth of ink and X Y and Z to do it."

The way it's written makes it sound like you throw up the 50gp and poof, there's your spell.

Ok. I think I see the problem here.

You are reading "For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp." but not connecting it to the following "The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it."

The two have to be read together. Not read separately.

You need 50gp in stuff to do this. You can not do this without buying those 50gp worth of stuff and expending it.

Does that help?

Yes. It helps a lot. I guess my followup then is how do you know what components you need, specifically. If you want to buy the materials ahead of time so you can copy the spells even in the wilderness, wouldn't you need to know what these components are, so you can buy them at a shop.

It is abstract. Essentially you find a place with a shop selling the components and pay up. You get a batch of "components" and some "fine inks". They can be whatever the DM or player says they are. But Id say that they probably do not take up alot of space. A normal ink bottle weighs only an ounce. So you might say enough "stuff" to copy a single level 9 spell weighs a pound. Or some other method like 2oz per 50gp batch of components and inks.

Ah, so as a DM I just have to decide a certain store sells "components" and leave it at that.

I was confused because it looked like the whole "wave your hands, spend 50gp and poof" way was written on purpose since 5e is supposed to be rules light.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878146I was confused because it looked like the whole "wave your hands, spend 50gp and poof" way was written on purpose since 5e is supposed to be rules light.

Rules light doesn't mean your setting doesn't have to work illogically. It just means that there isn't detailed mechanics to handle certain things.

It is so important to you to get the letter of the rule right? I felt you "got it" a couple of posts back that is was more a setting detail rather than a hard and fast rule in the way that the to hit roll is a d20 roll high compared to the target's AC.

At this point, I have to ask how do you want spellbooks to work in your campaign? And that preference is practical in light how your campaign is managed? I seen referees go overly detailed on a pet peeve because it annoys them but runs just about everything else in a rules light fashion. I found that this inconsistency annoys most players as it clearly a result of DM bias.

On the other hand if it is about the same level of details you do for your other rulings then players just chalk it up as that the way the setting works.

If on the other hand the players are using the rulebook to bully you and usurp your authority then you need to explain that this is how the setting works. If they complain that not how 5e works, remind the point is to play your campaign which mostly but not always uses the 5e rules.

if it is the middle of a campaign and you already stuck with a ruling, then explain that the next time you run a 5e campaign it is going to work like X. Even if it means going more by the book rather than something unique to the setting. If you think your past ruling is just that bad, then take some time before the session and talk to the player about it. Likely there will be complaints however if they don't convince them then stick to your guns and make the change.

In this particular instance, changing how copying spells into the spellbooks works shouldn't be a big deal provided you make the announcement of the change PRIOR to the session starting. Do NOT do this in the middle of the session prior to the players wanting to copy spells into the spellbooks. Most players will rightly consider this an unfair ruling.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878146Ah, so as a DM I just have to decide a certain store sells "components" and leave it at that.

I was confused because it looked like the whole "wave your hands, spend 50gp and poof" way was written on purpose since 5e is supposed to be rules light.

Thats what rules light often is. Not everything is hammered down in minute detail. And the general assumtion is that everything is not allways availible everywhere. Though I think that is one thing they should have stated more clearly in the books.

Chainmail for example: Its not stated what gauge its made from, the dimensions of the rings, the style of the linking, etc.

Quote from: estar;878154Rules light doesn't mean your setting doesn't have to work illogically. It just means that there isn't detailed mechanics to handle certain things.

It is so important to you to get the letter of the rule right? I felt you "got it" a couple of posts back that is was more a setting detail rather than a hard and fast rule in the way that the to hit roll is a d20 roll high compared to the target's AC.

At this point, I have to ask how do you want spellbooks to work in your campaign?

It's more that I'm trying to figure out what setting the rules themselves provided in this case. Usually there's an implied setting or the rule says something about the setting itself.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878182It's more that I'm trying to figure out what setting the rules themselves provided in this case. Usually there's an implied setting or the rule says something about the setting itself.

It's 2 hours and 50gp (in material components and notation) per spell level.

Implied setting is the spell's noted components, cross referenced with the Equipment chapter, along with assumed notation methods. Check sundries, gear, trade goods, etc. for material components. Notation would logically include paper as well as ink, (these are setting dependent if magical writing uses paper and ink).

It's not just 50gp/lvl of ink; it's 50gp/lvl of material components and fine inks (and presumably paper). So if the material components are negligible (bat guano?, grasshopper legs?), the implied setting presumes the notation will take the better part of the cost. If the material component for one casting is more costly than the total for learning the spell, similarly again the implied setting presumes notation would take the better part of the cost.

Does that help?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878182It's more that I'm trying to figure out what setting the rules themselves provided in this case. Usually there's an implied setting or the rule says something about the setting itself.

Because of it origins in the wargaming community of the 1970s, the normal of OD&D is to kitbash whatever you need to run the scenario/campaign that you were interested.  This idea of kitbashed fantasy continued with D&D up to 3.0. Of course each edition had a different focus but still targeted the original idea of kitbashing your fantasy campaign.

D&D 4.0 had a focus and definitive take on the fantasy genre. D&D 5e marks a return to the older idea kitbashing your fantasy campaign.

So if you are looking for a definitive default setting for D&D 5e, you are not going to find it.

Rather what you should do is look at the different stuff (items, monsters, spells, etc) that D&D 5e gives you and decide how your fantasy campaign will work.

So if your vision is that inks and quills are light and easy to carry and allows wizards to scribe spells in a cave then go with that. If you think they need to be a comfortable room, with a desk with an elaborate and delicate assortment of inks and components. Then go with that.

What I can do is give advice is how easy or hard it is to translate your vision into D&D 5e mechanics. How spells are scribed into spellbooks is a trivial amount of work on your part. You just need to decide how it works and stick with it. There is literally no right answer on this particular mechanic .

The only things that remained consistent is that there are spellbooks, that spell can be scribed into them for the wizard to memorize/prepare for later, and that it take time and money to do this.