Quote from: RPGPunditRight, and the over 50% divorce rate in american society is just a blip.

:raise: :rolleyes:

Quote from: James J SkachI mean, c'mon Pundit - if we're married we're lying or deluding ourselves?

Oh, not necessarily. I've met plenty of guys who will gladly admit what is going on; both of the "well, you know, she's the boss" more-or-less contended "indoor cat" variety who have basically decided that its worth it to have your life run for you in exchange for the security or emotional support or nookie that they receive as a reward for being good pets, or of the other variety, that acknowledge that they lie to their wife/gf on a regular basis, and recognize that its a game they play where they have to jump through some of the hoops and then make sure they don't get caught the rest of the time.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditRight, and the over 50% divorce rate in american society is just a blip.

Most divorces in the Western world are initiated by women. That would suggest that the women are unhappy with the men; surely if the women are mostly lying, deceitful, nasty ones, the men would be initiating the divorces?

Or maybe the men are like you. That could explain it.

RPGPundit, it's obvious that you know about as much about sexual relationships as Dominus Nox knows about multiculturalism. Stick to talking about shit you know about, like rpgs.

Quote from: JimBobOzThe common element to all your fucked-up relationships is you.

Yeah, that would really be something worth considering, if it was that my opinion was based entirely off my own narcissistic observations gleaned from my personal relationships and no other source, like, say, the entire rest of humanity, and more specifically virtually everyone I've ever known whos been in a relationship of any kind.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzMost divorces in the Western world are initiated by women. That would suggest that the women are unhappy with the men; surely if the women are mostly lying, deceitful, nasty ones, the men would be initiating the divorces?

I don't see why. Like I said, men are as much liars as women, though they're usually far more simple about it, since what they want is pretty well already sex.  So instead, they lie in the sense of jumping through whatever hoops the girl wants him to pretend to care about, in order to get it.

That women start most divorces isn't surprising in the least respect, and it really doesn't affect the conversation one way or the other.

The fact that most marriages today end in divorce.. that you'll have a better chance of calling a coin flip than of staying married to who you're married to right now, that pretty much proves my point about the fucked-up nature of long-term relationships, which is what my citing that case was addressing. If most relationships were so noble and loving and filled with caring honest women and sincere dedicated men, then you wouldn't see those kinds of statistics, would you?

RPGPundit

Yes yes yes you're the Ron Edwards of relationships.  You know the true answers why everybody else is just fooling themselves into thinking they are happy.

Wow... you logic... underwhelms me.

Like I said, a lot of them are sincerely happy. Either because they more or less openly acknowledge the nature of relationships, or because they are one of those sorts of people that feel ok with lying.

RPGPundit

Pundit, the sheer stupidity of your argument is...well..stunning.

The only guys you kow who are not deluding themselves or lying to your are men who have given their balls to their wife for safe keeping?

WTF kind of relationships do you have?  My god, I can name, without thinking hard, at least 5-10 relationships that don't fit your paradigm. And I can honestly say they are in the majority of the people I know.

Are there others? Sure, my brother was in a relationship much like you describe. Hell, I've had women try to change me.

But you're asserting that it's essentially impossible for two people to have a relationship that doesn't involve some kind of cynical, adolescent, unwanted power struggle.

If you can't see that as a possibility, I won't try to change your mind. I'll just go along with those who pity you and think you're creepy.

Quote from: JimBobOzThe common element to all your fucked-up relationships is you.

Quote from: RPGPunditYeah, that would really be something worth considering, if it was that my opinion was based entirely off my own narcissistic observations gleaned from my personal relationships and no other source, like, say, the entire rest of humanity, and more specifically virtually everyone I've ever known whos been in a relationship of any kind.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsMy straightforward observation of the activity of role-playing is that many participants do not enjoy it very much. Most role-players I encounter are tired, bitter, and frustrated.[...]

I have met dozens, perhaps over a hundred, very experienced role-players with this profile: a limited repertoire of games behind him and extremely defensive and turtle-like play tactics. Ask for a character background, and he resists, or if he gives you one, he never makes use of it or responds to cues about it. Ask for actions - he hunkers down and does nothing unless there's a totally unambiguous lead to follow or a foe to fight. His universal responses include "My guy doesn't want to," and, "I say nothing."

I have not, in over twenty years of role-playing, ever seen such a person have a good time role-playing. I have seen a lot of groups founder due to the presence of one such participant.

If we are to accept that RPGPundit's personal experiences and observations are accurate, and thus his conclusions are true, we must also accept that Ron Edwards' personal experiences and observations are accurate, and thus his conclusions are true.

Either you admit that your own experiences and observations may be biased and wrong, and your conclusions may be wrong, or else you must say Ron Edwards is right. You cannot reasonably suppose that your own observations of the world are clear, sensible, and utterly free of bias, and yet everyone else's observations are muddled, confused, and biased. That's just another way of saying, "me smart, rest of world dumb." It's not reasonable to suppose that you are intelligent and clear-headed, and the rest of the world is crazy or stupid.

Uncle Ronny tells us he's had a lot of crap game groups. Rather than supposing that perhaps there's something wrong with one person - himself - he'd rather suppose there's something wrong with "perhaps over a hundred" other gamers he's met. It's more likely that one person is a fuck-up than one hundred.

RPGPundit tells us he's had a lot of crap relationships. Rather than supposing there's something wrong with... etc.

I say to you, as I said to Uncle Ronny, the common element to all your fucked-up relationships is you.

Go and contemplate that, Mirror Ron. I don't pretend to know what's right or wrong with you and your relationships; but you tell us they went badly. If they all went badly, then it's probably you. Either there's something wrong with you, or something wrong in your taste in women. If you observe similar failings in other relationships, then it may be that you're simply seeing what you want to see. I wouldn't know what's in your mind or heart. Bit it is not true that women are all liars, and men pathetic creatures begging for sex. That is vile sexism. Your ideas about men and women are no more true than Dominus Nox's ideas about race and religion.

I've found that bigotry often hinders people's relationships of all kinds.

Now shut the fuck up about women, Mirror Ron. You're scaring off half the potential members of therpgsite. It's just embarassing.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf by "assholes" you mean 98% of all couples I've ever seen in my life, ever?

Apparently that is, indeed, what I mean.

98% of all couples you've ever seen operate in this way?  Wow.  You have really fucked up friends.

Quote from: RPGPunditLike I said, a lot of them are sincerely happy. Either because they more or less openly acknowledge the nature of relationships, or because they are one of those sorts of people that feel ok with lying.

And what about the people who believe that they are in open, honest, equal, happy relationships where sex is not a source of power struggle?  Like me, for instance.

Jesus.  If you can get JimBob and I to agree...

The Cubs will win the World Series this year. :toast:

Quote from: RPGPunditBut now are YOU seriously trying to tell me that in most relationships, women do NOT try to get men to change the way they act, stop doing things they enjoy, start doing things they don't want to do, or give them certain things, in exchange for sex?

Ummm... maybe you're just crap in the sack? People typically expect favours for doing something they don't enjoy doing. Ask me to drink a frosty cold beer on a hot day, and you won't get any arguments. So I wonder, why would women be so determined to use sex as some kind of bargaining tool with you if they weren't really enjoying it? I can only assuming you (and presumably all your friends) are lousing lays.:raise:
 
The rest of us don't seem to have this problem.

Wow, you guys are all being spectacularly defensive and willing to make all kinds of personal attacks and intellectual loop-de-loops in order to avoid simple truths.

If any of you were willing to be the slightest bit honest, you'd admit that most relationships depend on lying in countless little ways on a regular basis, and on often doing something other than what is true to your nature, because its what your partner wants of you. To some people, this is even considered a sign of "maturity" as if somehow becoming co-dependent and denying yourself the things you enjoy in life are somehow a more noble or adult choice than being your own person.

I've met lots of women who didn't want to change me, usually they were happy with having sex and friendships, and not the least bit interested in having formal "relationships". So yes, its the latter concept that is fucked up, and brings out the worst in both women and men.

RPGPundit