It has been years since I had anything to do with vbulletin board, and I can't more relevant thread to discuss this, so pardon me if I somehow missed it...

KULT RPG is one of most (blah, blah, insert adjectives synonymous to "blasphemous", "shocking", "disturbing" here) role playing games ever. It's famous of many things, including... Well, let's just say that it's supposed to be famous.

Anyway: after many years of stagnation, it's supposed to get a reboot.

On one hand, this is awesome news to all its fans. People responsible for the reboot seem to understand the setting and lore, know how to bring back the atmosphere of the original game, know where their towels are & such. Graphics is good, one of people involved is already dead, devs speculated about releasing very special edition with the cover made of human skin, so "promising" seems to be an adequate word.

On the other hand, it's supposed to run on Apocalypse World engine.

Soooooooooo... Any KULT veterans willing to share some thoughts?

Good setting, I've used CoC to play it.
No interest at all in the *World system.
If they bring out some interesting new take on the setting I might be tempted to have a look to mine it for ideas.

I've been following it since it was announced last year, as Kult is/was a remarkably well realised, and provocative gnostic horror setting.

In some ways, it's the polar opposite to Call of Cthulhu, as it supposes that humanity are essentially fallen angels which places them at the centre of (their own) universe(s). In Call of Cthulhu the underlying factor is that humanity is utterly insignificant. In Kult, humanity is ignorant. Kult also differed from Call of Cthulhu in that it really did not pull any punches when it came to transgression. On the facebook page, there has already been complaints about the example material snippets - I expect it may continue.

I am fairly ambivalent about the system, although the original system wasn't particularly special. The main appeal was the magic - which was based on real world occult practices, and gave a philosophical premise to each Lore - and I've not really heard that much about it in the new blurb as of yet. Rolling 2D6 makes little difference to rolling D20 to me, and I expect the main 'playbook' feature of AW will probably integrate the Archetypes that were already used in Kult.

AW, like FATE, Savage  and indeed some older generic systems like GURPS, tend to grate because of the evangelical zeal that their fans try to convert you to the system for everything and anything. I have played Dungeon World, but remarked at the time that it was no better than just playing D&D with more restrictions. I stand by that now, really - but I'm prepared to wait and see what they come up with for Kult. They have already made it known that it's an "adaptation" of the AW rules, rather than being a straight AW game.

The trouble is, even though I've been following it carefully, they've yet to come up with anything that has really excited me. I may end up getting the pdf, and mining it for ideas too - most likely for Mage.

Old school KULT fan here with no real experience with AW hacks. I've given dungeonworld a closer look and decided that it doesn't work the way I need an RPG to operate.  But, it's KULT. So I'm following the news closely.

So with that in mind:
1) it's Divinity Lost, not Paradise Lost. Let's keep this straight.
2) the publishers have said while they began with AW as the basis, they've moved far from it in the current draft. How far? Only the lictors know. The demiurge might, but he's unreachable last time I checked (that was 1994, so...)
3) the original system was a bit of a pain. A lot of people ported the world over to different systems (Over the Edge was a popular alternative back in the day).
4) Listening to an actual play of "monster of the week", which I believe is a hack of AW, it seems possible that a hack can indeed "blend into the background", as the publishers claim this version does. I suspect some of the issues (my issues anyway) may stem from some of the vernacular used for the AW system. But again, I have no real experience with it. I'm not ready to throw in with either side just yet.
5) the publishers seem to recognize the chief complaints of the anti-AW crowd and the common criticisms and claim the game doesn't suffer those. There are rumors to the opposite. So no point in bitching til we see something more concrete.
6) it's KULT. You can run it with almost any contemporary setting RPG that makes allowances for the supernatural.

Tom

Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480In some ways, it's the polar opposite to Call of Cthulhu, as it supposes that humanity are essentially fallen angels which places them at the centre of (their own) universe(s). In Call of Cthulhu the underlying factor is that humanity is utterly insignificant. In Kult, humanity is ignorant.

Ayup. I recall one particularly interesting discussion where someone made exactly the same observation, and asked people to find a solution allowing to merge two so much different settings.

The outcome wasn't perfect, but not that bad either: Lovecraftian beings are people who Ascended and became so different both in "shape" and mind, that they became totally disconnected from sleeping Mankind and its ways. Relatively "young" and still attempting to come to terms with their nigh-omnipotent powers, they simply abandoned the stage where all drama happens and moved to other parts of true reality, waged wars against each other, etc.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480I am fairly ambivalent about the system, although the original system wasn't particularly special. The main appeal was the magic - which was based on real world occult practices, and gave a philosophical premise to each Lore - and I've not really heard that much about it in the new blurb as of yet. Rolling 2D6 makes little difference to rolling D20 to me, and I expect the main 'playbook' feature of AW will probably integrate the Archetypes that were already used in Kult.

The problems I have with *.world games is that they severely limit the action for the Narrator (for example: he doesn't roll dice) and that this mechanics relies on fixed set of moves dictating what PCs can and can't do, rather than on "do what you want, we'll think about relevant skill/attribute" approach.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480AW, like FATE, Savage  and indeed some older generic systems like GURPS, tend to grate because of the evangelical zeal that their fans try to convert you to the system for everything and anything.

Unfortunately, this is true. The Internet is full of people who sacrifice so much energy into pushing the game of their choice down peoples' throats, that it leaves one wondering how they manage to play these games at all. After all, neither time, nor energy are unlimited and if you see someone preaching "x" day after day in every thread... ;]

I'd be really surprised if they can make the Playbook/Move system work in a setting where reality or the illusion can be manipulated completely.

Quote from: Simlasa;877476Good setting, I've used CoC to play it.

Are we talking about mechanics or setting crossover?

Quote from: Blusponge;8774851) it's Divinity Lost, not Paradise Lost. Let's keep this straight.

Damn! My mistake, sorry.

As for AW engine, I have a bad feeling about it. After all, to my knowledge there's no successful *.world based game that deals with horror of KULT's level.

Sure, there are some hacks or horror-themed playbooks, there's "Tremulus", yet, neither seem to gain much recognition as "AW-driven scary game", which the newest edition of KULT is supposed to be.

BTW, Over the Edge (WaRP) as an alternative for KULT's framework? I know that people used Unknown Armies and oWoD, but WaRP being a popular alternative is news for me. I know that there's Call of Cthulhu - Over the Edge connection, but KULT? Any links, materials?

Quote from: CRKrueger;877491I'd be really surprised if they can make the Playbook/Move system work in a setting where reality or the illusion can be manipulated completely.

...and where PCs travel across different "realities". Yeah, that's exactly my assumption.

I can't imagine limited set of moves to cover adventures taking place on Earth, in "Hell", among ruins of Metropolis and beyond.

I'm really curious about Kult. Back in the 90's I was never able to get ahold of a copy of it and only heard of it in hushed whispers from older, cooler gamers... kinda like Empire of the Petal Throne in the 80's.

I recall reading one review back in the day that called it "The most schizophrenic RPG ever: One half erudite Gnostic philosophy, one half Italian cannibal zombie movies".

Quote from: JesterRaiin;877474On the other hand, it's supposed to run on Apocalypse World engine.

So it's ice cream made out of kale and rabbit shit?

I'm an Old School Kult fan. My response? Fuck them with fire.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480On the facebook page, there has already been complaints about the example material snippets - I expect it may continue.

Post some snippets please!!!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;877480I may end up getting the pdf, and mining it for ideas too - most likely for Mage.

Good idea.

I once ran a Kult one-shot with Eldritch Ass Kicking as the rules because it was just so rules light it gave me time to teach the basics of the Kult setting quickly to the players and I wanted all of them to be reality bending mages. But for a home campaign, nWoD Mage would be a perfectly good fit.

...especially since most of the "vile darkness" in Kult comes from the setting and the GM in actual play, not actually from the rules.  

I knew people who used Over the Edge but that system never worked for me for whatever reason.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;877498...and where PCs travel across different "realities". Yeah, that's exactly my assumption.

I can't imagine limited set of moves to cover adventures taking place on Earth, in "Hell", among ruins of Metropolis and beyond.

In my experience of *World hacks "moves" are extremely broad - much broader than the term implies. You can sort of see the Apocalypse World system's big innovation being more about a different way to present game mechanics: rather than splitting rules chapters by subject, so you have to jump here to find your combat stuff, here to find your magic stuff, and so on, you instead have your playbook and the set of basic moves and that covers the combat bit relevant to you, the magic bit relevant to you, and so on and so forth.

In my experience, it tends to feel artificial if and only if you approach it in the following way:

"I want to accomplish something in the gameworld" -> "I'm looking up which move might accomplish that thing" -> "Right, how do I trigger that move?"

Instead, it works best and fades into the background nicely if you approach it like this:

"I want to accomplish something in the gameworld" -> "What would my character do to accomplish that?" -> "What move makes sense there?"

Where you only go to the last step if there's a reasonable chance of failure in the first place, and if you can't see a move which quite works it's actually no trouble for the referee to just improv a move on the spot.

Each and every single move in a *World game is nothing more than a skin applied to the task resolution system, just the same as any other task in any other RPG with a task resolution system. It sounds to me like the Kult team are really getting deep inside the system and understanding how it ticks and how they can make that feel like a proper Kult experience, so with the passing of time I've become less and less put off by the system shift. (It's not like the old system was any great shakes as it stood.)

Quote from: JesterRaiin;877496Are we talking about mechanics or setting crossover?

Purely for the mechanics. Like has been mentioned, the themes/assumptions of the CoC and Kult are near opposites.
I borrowed a bit from Nephilim as well.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;877508I'm really curious about Kult. Back in the 90's I was never able to get ahold of a copy of it and only heard of it in hushed whispers from older, cooler gamers... kinda like Empire of the Petal Throne in the 80's.

I recall reading one review back in the day that called it "The most schizophrenic RPG ever: One half erudite Gnostic philosophy, one half Italian cannibal zombie movies".

Heh...

It is crucial to go back in time to truly understand KULT. When it was released times were different, people thought in different ways, RPGs were less mainstream than they are now, things we're accustomed to now were prohibited and so on and so forth.

Enter KULT. It says about ideas and possibilities that were unknown back then, it presents christian mythology in different light long years before certain Dan writes his book about Christ and his alleged legacy, long before it becomes popular to discuss alternative history and so on, and so forth.

On top of it, the game misses "safety lock" - as opposite to fantasy games, it takes place in our reality and by merging it with its unorthodox suggestions full of gnostic ideas and the atmosphere of shadowy conspiracies, it's capable of twisting your perception of the real world around you, what translates to "the game doesn't stop with the session".

Plenty of people reacted with panic, accused it of being a devil's invention, like they gladly did with many different products (D&D included). Such approach resulted with difficulties to play the game (lack of copies, lack of players, public stigmata), but also in its urban legend status.

Some time passes. We accepted plenty of things as at least "possible", we don't back out from questioning even most axiomatic dogmas of life, we have an access to libraries of stuff and can read ancient manuscripts translated to at least English, there are countless sects and movements that present alternative models of reality. Both entertainment (movies, games) and live news are so full of blood and cruelty that it numbed down people's empathy and taste.

So, no wonder that nowadays KULT isn't as blasphemous as it was back then. Were you to read it, you would probably miss 50% of stuff that made us react with "whoa" upon reading it in years predating y2k.

Yet, if you think about it, there's hardly any game that's rivaling its setting in terms of darkness. Personally I can think of perhaps 2 games, no more.

And this is its greatest strength and weakness. Forget about aging, since there were hardly any elements fixed to that certain period of our history. It's just that it's hard to find people with enough skill, perspective (as in "distance"), dedication and tastes to play it "correctly" and I mean by that "squeezing from it more than just slasher scenarios". Frankly, I'm not sure I'm up to the task anymore, considering how much times changed and how much people accept as "meh".

Don't get me wrong: it's not that it's God knows what kind of game. It's just that it's like Amber or similar games featuring very demanding style of play. If all you have at your disposal are players who want to forget about the world for a moment, who don't want to dig through lore, speculate, discuss it, when all you can count on are series of one-shots rather than long campaigns, then it can't present all it has in store.

Ahem.

That being said: take alien horror, uncertainty and the possibility of your PC dying in horrible, horrible fashion from Call of Cthulhu. Add magical aspect, multilayered world and sanity from Unknown Armies. Mix it with reality of supernatural beings hiding in shadows, conspiring in a power struggle that avoids the eye of dreaming mankind, from World Of Darkness. Add spicy possibility of traveling through different layers of reality as seen in Don't Lose Your Head. Cook it, wait patiently, in the meantime watch a movie by Lynch, Cronnenberg or other similar director.

Serve.

That's KULT in a nutshell, according to your truly. ;]

Quote from: Warthur;877523Instead, it works best and fades into the background nicely if you approach it like this:

"I want to accomplish something in the gameworld" -> "What would my character do to accomplish that?" -> "What move makes sense there?"

That's, actually, very good suggestion.

I don't have problem with *.world games per se. It's just that I get the feeling that it switches focus from the possibilities to "what moves are at my disposal and how can I put them into action" syndrome - exactly like you observed. It's like people unknowingly close themselves in a set of predetermined possibilities ONLY, something observable in cRPG vs RPG comparison, where former, while being able to not only match, but also surpass the "fun" of the latter (at least in certain cases) does it only with limited set of choices a PC might face.

This and the problem with GM not using any dice whatsoever. I like to GM, I like to roll dice. ;]

Being forbidden from doing so, takes some crucial part of my "fun" away.

Therefore, while I welcome the possibility of *.world based horror game, I'm not sure whether it will work in this specific case and whether I'll like it. I'm not yet convinced, but... We shall see.

It's also important to remember that, back in the day, "occult"  ideas were generally still hidden and nowhere near as accessible as they are now over the internet. Kult tapped into real occult ideas and moulded them into a darkly plausible (but fictional!) setting with some very evocative writing and art. As I said, it really didn't pull any punches in it's content either - making Hannibal Lector seem like a well adjusted citizen.

I'm a bit hazy on the facts, but I'm sure I recall that the dangers of the Kult RPG was actually discussed at a parliamentary level in Sweden with at least one supplement very close to being legally banned. Of all the dark RPGs that came out of the 1990s, and there were lots, Kult is the darkest.