Quote from: Skarg;873137I quite agree with Spike's review.



Yeah, this was JJ's last chance for me. I'm convinced his defining feature is being anti-continuity. Since I'm very continuity-oriented, this makes him one of my least favorite directors ever, especially since he excretes all over Trek and Star Wars. I wish they'd just had him make his own sci fi films.

I likes the movie in the cinema but as I think about it I get increasingly annoyed by it.

There are very easy ways that he most egregious plotholes/deus-ex-machina could have been avoided and the plot path would have still been moreorless the same.
For me the worst were
i) Solo finding the Falcon immediately wtf - easily fixed if in order to escape they hit the hyperdrive and ended up being pushed to a set destination (probably round Maz's planet) then Solo picks up a beacon and can show up to claim his ship.
ii) The Starkiller base is so bad that it is having a Jar-Jar effect on me, to whit initially you gloss over it but it just keeps on bugging me and bugging me and bugging me. They could have picked any mega weapon but went for one that drains the power of its own sun and then fires hyperdriven energy beams across the galaxy WTF. for the heroes all the planets are visible from the ground and they all explode at the same time. The writers not only have a knowledge of physics that fails at the primary school level their knowledge of geology is soooooooo awful that the planet the weapon if built into .....AHHHH. of all the choices they could have made in a 20 minute brainstorming session they simply picked the worse one.

Quote from: Skarg;873137Yeah, this was JJ's last chance for me. I'm convinced his defining feature is being anti-continuity. Since I'm very continuity-oriented, this makes him one of my least favorite directors ever, especially since he excretes all over Trek and Star Wars.

A friend of mine, referring to Lost and some other newer series, describes his style of writing as improvisational... that it's more about what seems cool in the moment than adhering to some pre-outlined structure. Just write 'straight ahead' and don't bother yourself too much about where you came from or where you're going.

QuoteI wish they'd just had him make his own sci fi films.

Wasn't that what Cloverfield was?

Quote from: jibbajibba;873185I likes the movie in the cinema but as I think about it I get increasingly annoyed by it.

There are very easy ways that he most egregious plotholes/deus-ex-machina could have been avoided and the plot path would have still been moreorless the same.

Exactly. I don't see any gain for making it not make sense, and it would be easy to fix - it's like he really doesn't care, has no clue about continuity, or he actively dislikes things making sense.

QuoteFor me the worst were
i) Solo finding the Falcon immediately wtf - easily fixed if in order to escape they hit the hyperdrive and ended up being pushed to a set destination (probably round Maz's planet) then Solo picks up a beacon and can show up to claim his ship.

Yep, exactly. And that's just one example of the same problem - somehow the whole galaxy is a place where anyone finds anyone and attacks them in the next ten minutes. I wonder where Luke is? Let's all go to this one wasteland planet and chase one droid - wait, why? Then after Han finds the Falcon, one half-conversation later, two different bounty hunter groups also show up? Oh goo, escaped that to another planet... that's good for another half-conversation before both the New Kids On The Block Empire and the New Rebel Resistance both show up... and then NO TIME TO LOSE before that's even over TIME TO DESTROY SOME RANDOM PLANETS - any need to know what those planets are or why they're being destroyed? Nah! Oh, look, we can see them in the sky, even though they are not even in the same star system, because basic astronomy is for people who think, and that's not wanted around here. Ok, so what's next? Well clearly the Resistance Rebellion Whatever has all its forces in one immobile location that the New Kids Empire knows about and will attack in the next half-hour, and so clearly we need to blow up that planet first. The part about using an entire star to fire is just for drama, so who cares that it must be able to move to a new star, because if we cared then how the fuck would we know where it went to launch the next attack? Good thing we have two new adolescent strangers and Han and Chewie, so that makes FOUR whole commandos we can send. No real plan needed. And we've got a whole dozen X-Wings we can send too - that should be enough against one of those stupid death-star-things.

It's like listening to a five-year old tell you the plot of a movie they "saw" that they are just making up, except the five-year-old is more original and interesting.

Quoteii) The Starkiller base is so bad that it is having a Jar-Jar effect on me, to whit initially you gloss over it but it just keeps on bugging me and bugging me and bugging me. They could have picked any mega weapon but went for one that drains the power of its own sun and then fires hyperdriven energy beams across the galaxy WTF. for the heroes all the planets are visible from the ground and they all explode at the same time. The writers not only have a knowledge of physics that fails at the primary school level their knowledge of geology is soooooooo awful that the planet the weapon if built into .....AHHHH. of all the choices they could have made in a 20 minute brainstorming session they simply picked the worse one.

Yep! Exactly, and you may have missed that the planets they saw blowing up aren't even supposed to be in their star system. . . .

Quote from: Simlasa;873199A friend of mine, referring to Lost and some other newer series, describes his style of writing as improvisational... that it's more about what seems cool in the moment than adhering to some pre-outlined structure. Just write 'straight ahead' and don't bother yourself too much about where you came from or where you're going.

Wasn't that what Cloverfield was?

I didn't realize Cloverfield (which I haven't seen) was JJ. Maybe the first-person perspective is best for him. Or the drug-induced-haze first-person perspective...

I don't think the plot holes in Force Awakening were any worse than the plot holes in the original trilogy. I just watched all three again the other night and it has plenty of odd coincidences and plot bumps because they help move the action along and keep things interesting. Not to mention it is obvious throughout that Lucas never intended Vader to be the father and he never intended Luke and Leia to be brother/sister. An action adventure like that is going to have some holes in the plot if you think about it too hard. It is corny flash gordon stuff and supposed to be a soap opera in space. So I think people are taking the new movie a little too seriously. I never watched the new Star Trek movies because they looked too Star Wars like for me. And with Star Trek I expect a much different approach. But this is a film where it seems like a good fit. For Star Wars, this was way better than the prequels, and even a little better than a New Hope.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873323An action adventure like that is going to have some holes in the plot if you think about it too hard. It is corny flash gordon stuff and supposed to be a soap opera in space. So I think people are taking the new movie a little too seriously.

I agree.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873323For Star Wars, this was way better than the prequels, and even a little better than a New Hope.

What!?! Die heretic!

Quote from: Bren;873328What!?! Die heretic!

I don't think that may people would share my assessment, but I personally I always found New Hope the least entertaining in the first trilogy (largely because I was born in 1976 and the first Star Wars movie I saw in the theater was Return of the Jedi when it came out). So for me Empire is my favorite, Followed by Jedi and the Force Awakens (and I am debating which one I like better between the two), then A New Hope.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873323An action adventure like that is going to have some holes in the plot if you think about it too hard.

Ideally you should have to think to see those plot holes.

There are times when this movie slaps you in the face with them.


Of course, I am increasingly of the opinion that the original movies did so very well because they weren't trying to be light hearted kiddie fare.  Empire is fucking GRIM, and A New Hope actually took its sci-fi premise seriously, which was pretty unique for the era.  Sure, the science is shoddy, with amazing amounts of handwavium scattered over the landscape.

But The Farce Awakens doesn't even bother with the Handwavium, much less science... shoddy or not.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873331I don't think that may people would share my assessment, but I personally I always found New Hope the least entertaining in the first trilogy (largely because I was born in 1976 and the first Star Wars movie I saw in the theater was Return of the Jedi when it came out). So for me Empire is my favorite, Followed by Jedi and the Force Awakens (and I am debating which one I like better between the two), then A New Hope.

Empire is, I think, the popular favorite as well as the critics favorite for best episode in the series so you aren't in a minority. Being ancient in comparison to your relative youth, I had the benefit of seeing Star Wars when it first came out in the summer of 1977 on the Glenwood Theater's big screen. The Star Destroyer flying overhead was as unforgettable as John Williams' score. Besides which, I actually like movies with a happy ending.

Quote from: Spike;873336Ideally you should have to think to see those plot holes.

There are times when this movie slaps you in the face with them.


Of course, I am increasingly of the opinion that the original movies did so very well because they weren't trying to be light hearted kiddie fare.  Empire is fucking GRIM, and A New Hope actually took its sci-fi premise seriously, which was pretty unique for the era.  Sure, the science is shoddy, with amazing amounts of handwavium scattered over the landscape.

But The Farce Awakens doesn't even bother with the Handwavium, much less science... shoddy or not.

I don't know Spike. As a kid I was really into hard science fiction. I like Star Wars but I don't think it takes its sic-fi premise all that seriously. It is a soap opera, with Samurai and a supernatural power, set in space. I think it took its source material seriously though.

Quote from: Bren;873337Empire is, I think, the popular favorite as well as the critics favorite for best episode in the series so you aren't in a minority. Being ancient in comparison to your relative youth, I had the benefit of seeing Star Wars when it first came out in the summer of 1977 on the Glenwood Theater's big screen. The Star Destroyer flying overhead was as unforgettable as John Williams' score. Besides which, I actually like movies with a happy ending.

And I can appreciate that. I Understand that my experience was shaded by Jedi being my first Star Wars film. I would agree on the score. As far as I am concerned, that is what sets it apart from so many other movies. The way it uses music brings all the elements together.

Quote from: Spike;873336But The Farce Awakens doesn't even bother with the Handwavium, much less science... shoddy or not.

Like I said before I don't think the original trilogy was all that different in terms of plot holes and the science. Lucas always seemed way more interested in the cultures and the camp than in smoothing out the rough patches in the plot. If anything what makes Star Wars so great is the Soap Opera aspect, which embraces that stuff because you can do things like suddenly make the Hero and Princess brother and sister even though they kissed in the previous movie. Or you can make the bad guy the hero's father, even though it is pretty clear he was meant to be the guy who killed his father when he appeared in the first film. Heck, Lucas didn't even attempt to clean that stuff up in any of the revisions. He could easily have removed the scene where Leia kisses Luke.

I  may not have expressed that right. What I mean is that it is a serious film.

I agree that it is far more space opera than science fiction, both falling under the aegis 'Sci-Fi', but it takes itself seriously.  

Shall I list off the bullet points?

The dirty/lived in feel to most of the sets and props
The wanton murder of the Lars family and random Jawas
The murder of Alderaan is the central crux of the plot*
Torture probes**

The list goes on. Even Jawas, which are short and ostensibly 'cute' aren't played with any real cuteness, but almost as verminous.  

This may be indicative of a greater sickness in modern film making, where only 'real serious drama' films may be considered 'serious' while anything with a hint of action is considered some sort of popcorn flick, and never the twain shall meet, but that is neither here nor there. Compared to this newest Star Wars the difference in tone is palpable, and to the detriment of us all. Even the five year olds, who are ill served by treating them as incapable of caring.


* Contrast this with the introduction without any foreshadowing of the Starkiller, and the sudden 'death' of five worlds, none of which are named or apparently relevant to the plot, and the only reason we, the Audience, are asked to care is a few split second shots of crowds staring up at the sky in horror.  A New Hope treated the destruction of Alderaan as an unprecedented horror, with real impact to the characters. The Farce Awakens treated it as 'The Empire being all evil an' shit again, lol'.

** This may be spotty. Plenty of light hearted, unserious fare has included torture and torture devices as somewhat comical and unserious.  Still, compare and contrast the handling of the interrogator probe in A New Hope, or the torture of Han Solo in Empire (screams of pain, people looking away even though they aren't in the same room, etc), with TFA, where its all pointing hands and funny face making.... you know, every hero gets tortured these days. They call it Tuesday.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873349Like I said before I don't think the original trilogy was all that different in terms of plot holes and the science. .

Just for the record what are the major plot holes in A New Hope, from your perspective?  

As for science: I agree science tends to get short shrift in Space Opera, including Star Wars.  

Where we disagree here however is that in A New Hope there was some decent handwaving at science as understood by the layman. The Deathstar having to round the gas giant in order to fire on its moon, for example, or Alderaan leaving an asteroid belt behind.

The Force Awakens couldn't be bothered with even that much, to its serious detriment.  TFA can't be bothered with the understanding of science of a reasonably sensible child. An entire galaxy is reduced to the orbit over Jakku/Tattoine.

Quote from: Spike;873354I  may not have expressed that right. What I mean is that it is a serious film.

I agree that it is far more space opera than science fiction, both falling under the aegis 'Sci-Fi', but it takes itself seriously.  

Shall I list off the bullet points?

The dirty/lived in feel to most of the sets and props
The wanton murder of the Lars family and random Jawas
The murder of Alderaan is the central crux of the plot*
Torture probes**

The list goes on. Even Jawas, which are short and ostensibly 'cute' aren't played with any real cuteness, but almost as verminous.

I would honestly need to watch the Force Awakens again to check the tone consistency throughout. In terms of Grime, it seemed okay to me. But to me it had the same blend of humor and darkness that the original trilogy did. When I think star wars the first thing that leaps to mind are 3-CPO and R2-D2 bickering and and Luke getting his hand cut off. This movie opened with the empire doing some pretty nasty stuff and then a bloody streak on a storm troopers helmet (which to me felt pretty dark for star wars). I won't give away the ending, but that ending....that was pretty grim too.

QuoteThis may be indicative of a greater sickness in modern film making, where only 'real serious drama' films may be considered 'serious' while anything with a hint of action is considered some sort of popcorn flick, and never the twain shall meet, but that is neither here nor there. Compared to this newest Star Wars the difference in tone is palpable, and to the detriment of us all. Even the five year olds, who are ill served by treating them as incapable of caring.

My sense is films have always swayed back and forth between seriousness and grit. It is  a little hard to tell what kind of era your in when your in the middle of it (the 80s seemed a lot less corny to me when I was living through it, and the 90s seemed a lot less cringe worthy at the time). I do sometimes get the sense that films are not serious enough. But again this had the level of humor I expect in Star Wars and the level of seriousness. Just go back and watch A New Hope again, I guarantee you it has a bunch of little moments that stand out as too light for the surrounding action (for example Leia blasting a hole in the death star wall and shouting the boys into he garbage shoot). Those scenes all work, but they are popcorn moments for sure.

Quote* Contrast this with the introduction without any foreshadowing of the Starkiller, and the sudden 'death' of five worlds, none of which are named or apparently relevant to the plot, and the only reason we, the Audience, are asked to care is a few split second shots of crowds staring up at the sky in horror.  A New Hope treated the destruction of Alderaan as an unprecedented horror, with real impact to the characters. The Farce Awakens treated it as 'The Empire being all evil an' shit again, lol'.

But they blew up the republic in that scene and we saw the people witness the blasts coming to do them in. I can't say I had any particular attachment to Alderaan when it got blown up in the first movie, but that scene where you see the people witness destruction coming to their planet in the new movie, definitely put me in their shoes.

I felt they treated it in this movie the way Alderaan was treated in the first one: it happened, the characters reacted, there was a disturbance in the force, but they efficiently moved on because they had a story to tell (it wasn't like they reflected much on the loss of Alderaan after the fact aside from one or two throw-away lines of dialog).

I do think the moment when Obi-Wan senses the destruction of Alderaan is very iconic, and really encapsulates the heart of the film. So the first one has that advantage (it both gets at the destruction of Alderaan but also shows you something about the force). But that is a classic moment. Those are hard to repeat.

Quote** This may be spotty. Plenty of light hearted, unserious fare has included torture and torture devices as somewhat comical and unserious.  Still, compare and contrast the handling of the interrogator probe in A New Hope, or the torture of Han Solo in Empire (screams of pain, people looking away even though they aren't in the same room, etc), with TFA, where its all pointing hands and funny face making.... you know, every hero gets tortured these days. They call it Tuesday.

I wouldn't have been averse to them using torture in the film. I think it would have been fitting. My take though was it was because Kylo Ren still wasn't as bad or willing to go that far as Vader (which is why he smashes objects and not people when he gets bad news).

That said, I don't know the lack of torture made it a bad or worse film than the originals.