Quote from: JimBobOzEnough real prejudice around. Why do people have to see phantoms of it?

I think I've been around long enough to suss out dodgy comments of the racist or sexist kind. I get what you are sayin' but the constant references to Curt's sexuality and the comments attached to it are getting pretty "dodgy".

I mean I don't think anyone called Amado a spick or Curt a faggot for that matter but I have heard a lot of dodgy statements (sometimes subtle) added to comments about Curt's sexuality. I mean mention Darren and folks are angry but ambivalent (mostly) about him being a prick. Mention Curt...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI think I've been around long enough to suss out dodgy comments of the racist or sexist kind. I get what you are sayin' but the constant references to Curt's sexuality and the comments attached to it are getting pretty "dodgy".

I mean I don't think anyone called Amado a spick or Curt a faggot for that matter but I have heard a lot of dodgy statements (sometimes subtle) added to comments about Curt's sexuality. I mean mention Darren and folks are angry but ambivalent (mostly) about him being a prick. Mention Curt...

Regards,
David R

Agreed.  In response all I hear is a bunch of whining about him shoving it in their faces or playing the gay martyr.  Pretty dodgy from where I stand.

I still say he should come here.  If we're going to be talking about RPG.net all the damn time, we might as well have more of their posters here.

I reported one of Curt's mod posts once, saying it was inappropriate, nothing ever came of it, though.

Quote from: David RI get what you are sayin' but the constant references to Curt's sexuality and the comments attached to it are getting pretty "dodgy".

Honestly, I think it gets mentioned solely because he mentions it a lot. Like old Amado, he said if you didn't like the Lunars, I think it was, in Exalted it was because you were racist. That's as loopy as the guy on rpg.net who said the orcs in Tolkien represented the Third World. If you always bring up X as an issue, that's what people will remember about you. Just because X happens to be something key to the person's identity (race, sexuality, etc) doesn't mean that people intend it in that way. I mean, when people talk about RPGPundit, they mention his pipe smoking - because he makes those things an issue. It's not anything in particular about pipe smoking that they're for or against - it's just that he goes on about it a lot. Yet pipe smoking, as much as some people enjoy it, cannot really be said to be something key to a person's identity, like their sexuality or race.

Just because Amado's race is important to him when he mentions it doesn't mean it's important to us when we mention it. Likewise, Curt's sexuality.

Suppose RedFox flamed out some day on this forum, calling us all bastards - we wouldn't in later years go on about his being gay. Suppose John Kim went the same way - we wouldn't be babbling about his Korean ethnicity. Why? Because they don't go on about it. They don't make an issue of it, so it's not an issue.

If Curt just happened to abuse people a lot, and just happened to be gay, no-one would connect the two, or mention the latter. It's just that he was so often using his sexuality as an excuse for ripping into people, seeing prejudice when it just wasn't there. It gets mentioned because he mentioned it a lot.

That said, yes, some of the boys here get all antsy and into the adolescent jokes when talk of sexuality of any kind pops up, especially homosexuality.

Quote from: David RI mean I don't think anyone called Amado a spick or Curt a faggot for that matter but I have heard a lot of dodgy statements (sometimes subtle) added to comments about Curt's sexuality. I mean mention Darren and folks are angry but ambivalent (mostly) about him being a prick. Mention Curt...

Certainly. It's one of the reasons I've said that this place is not very friendly to women or gays. Still, there's no mystery as to why his sexuality gets mentioned at all. The mere mention of his sexuality does not prove bigotry about that sexuality, any more than someone mentioning that I'm Australian would prove they're bigoted towards Australians. I mention it a lot, one way or another - it's an issue because I make it an issue. So I can't scream "bigots!" every time someone says, "JimBobOz the Australian..."

Quote from: RedFoxIn response all I hear is a bunch of whining about him shoving it in their faces or playing the gay martyr.

I'm not that keen on anyone's sexuality being pushed in my face, literally or figuratively. I'm on record as abusing RPGPundit for his sexuality, which is apparently divorced from any tender feelings, and is rather misogynistic.

As to "playing the gay martyr", this is what Curt did. He saw prejudice everywhere. I think he was certainly right in seeing prejudice in the cocksmock who said, oh, "that is so gay" isn't always insulting to real homosexuals, it depends on context, but a good portion of the rest of the time he saw prejudice, it wasn't there. I've been in the Army, so I know homophobia when I see it. Tangency is basically the Sydney Mardigras in terms of homophobia - lots of nervous straight "oh but some of my best friends are gay!" spectators, and a few people displaying their sexuality very prominently.

It's the internet. No-one knows anything about you unless you typed it. Nothing's an issue unless you make it one. The vast majority of people don't give a damn where you put your genitals. Especially not on a roleplaying forum.

I couldn't care less about Curt's sexuality - I can ignore martyrs no matter what their cause, and do so on a daily basis.

For the record, I'm not one of those whom you can mention Darren around and get a shrug, in case you hadn't noticed.

Quote from: JimBobOzSuppose RedFox flamed out some day on this forum, calling us all bastards - we wouldn't in later years go on about his being gay. Suppose John Kim went the same way - we wouldn't be babbling about his Korean ethnicity. Why? Because they don't go on about it. They don't make an issue of it, so it's not an issue.

FUCK YOU AND ALL YOU OTHER BASTARDS!!!

Quote from: JimBobOzAs to "playing the gay martyr", this is what Curt did. He saw prejudice everywhere. I think he was certainly right in seeing prejudice in the cocksmock who said, oh, "that is so gay" isn't always insulting to real homosexuals, it depends on context, but a good portion of the rest of the time he saw prejudice, it wasn't there. I've been in the Army, so I know homophobia when I see it. Tangency is basically the Sydney Mardigras in terms of homophobia - lots of nervous straight "oh but some of my best friends are gay!" spectators, and a few people displaying their sexuality very prominently.

I might be more amenable to such attitudes if I could get a shred of proof along those lines.  As I mentioned in a previous thread regarding Curt, I haven't seen him call out anyone who didn't deserve it.  That isn't to say he didn't do such, just that I personally don't recollect anything of that nature.  And nobody offered up anything back then either.

Given that, I continue to find the prevailing attitude towards Curt here off-putting.  Not that anyone has to give a shit what I think, here.

I think Curt was a bad moderator, but I agree with David R and Red Fox re. prevailing attitude.

PS: whaddayaknow, I'm an "Evoker" now. How evocative.

Quote from: RedFoxFUCK YOU AND ALL YOU OTHER BASTARDS!!!

You're only saying that because you don't like cheetos as much as me!

No, wait - was I supposed to mention you were gay? Or red? Or a Rifts fan? I forget.

Quote from: RedFoxI might be more amenable to such attitudes if I could get a shred of proof along those lines.  As I mentioned in a previous thread regarding Curt, I haven't seen him call out anyone who didn't deserve it.

I'm not going down that route. That's the old Forger defence so well described by Balbinus.

Quote from: Balbinus1. Nobody said that, point me to somewhere someone said that.
2. Ok, well look, that was back in 2002.
3. Ok, that one is much more recent, but the guy who said it is not a major thinker.

I've seen that cascade more times than I can count, it ceases to persuade after a while.

So in this case it could go,

• Curt never accused anyone of homophobia without justification, point me to where he said that.
• Oh well that example doesn't really say what you think it says, actually the guy was homophobic.
• Well, Curt's response doesn't really say what you think it says, he wasn't really accusing the guy of homophobia.
• That was ages ago anyway, don't you have anything more recent?
• Look, out of the 36,000 posts he made, you only have 360 examples? So not even 1%!

And so on. It's the route of endless quibbling and no real resolution. Which is just too protective of cocksmocks for my liking.

If one or two people have a perception of you in a certain way, it doesn't mean much. If that perception is widespread, then you have to ask yourself if perhaps you don't deserve that perception.

Quote from: RedFoxGiven that, I continue to find the prevailing attitude towards Curt here off-putting.  Not that anyone has to give a shit what I think, here.

Like I said, it's envy. Envy that he got away with so much shit and wasn't even that interested in rpgs. It'd be like having Dominus Nox made a mod here, while Balbinus got banned. Balbinus would feel pissed off, and envy Nox the slack everyone was cutting him. Not that Curt attacked people or expresses as much prejudice as Nox, but still, it's a matter of degree only.

Just try an experiment, RedFox. Go say to someone on rpg.net, just in "hypothetical" terms, "your mother is a cum-guzzling whore." Let's see if you get more than a 2-day suspension. Then ask yourself if it's worth being pissed off (in that laid-back, "pissed off about shit that doesn't really matter" way) at a guy who got cut so much slack, and didn't even use it to make some interesting rpg threads. More wasted potential.

And ask yourself why a person's sexuality should become an issue at a roleplaying games discussion site. It's that Tangency, again. It's like a big personal blog, only even less interesting. I don't want to hear Blackberry talk about how he manages anal sex when his man has got diaorrhea (which he has discussed). I don't want to hear about RPGPundit's preference for prostitutes over genuine relationships (which he's told us about). I don't want to see fanboys drooling over cosplay pics. That is just shit I don't want to know about, but it pops up all over the place.

In the end, I don't care where Curt puts his little willy. He's just a fuckin' BNG.

Quote from: JimBobOzYou're only saying that because you don't like cheetos as much as me!

No, wait - was I supposed to mention you were gay? Or red? Or a Rifts fan? I forget.

I dunno.  You set the rules for this game, I'm just playing along.

Quote from: JimBobOzI'm not going down that route. That's the old Forger defence so well described by Balbinus.

So in this case it could go,

• Curt never accused anyone of homophobia without justification, point me to where he said that.
• Oh well that example doesn't really say what you think it says, actually the guy was homophobic.
• Well, Curt's response doesn't really say what you think it says, he wasn't really accusing the guy of homophobia.
• That was ages ago anyway, don't you have anything more recent?
• Look, out of the 36,000 posts he made, you only have 360 examples? So not even 1%!

And so on. It's the route of endless quibbling and no real resolution. Which is just too protective of cocksmocks for my liking.

Dude, I'm not a Forge-poster.  You're casting a hypothetical argument as a hypothetical reaction to the response I'm asking for.  It's a strawman.

I'm more than willing to go, "Hey, I don't see what you're talking about there," or "Hm, I guess that's a pretty good example, thanks."

If you don't feel like digging shit up, fine.  I'm not forcing you to.  But don't put words in my mouth and don't characterize my reactions before I give them.

Quote from: JimBobOzIf one or two people have a perception of you in a certain way, it doesn't mean much. If that perception is widespread, then you have to ask yourself if perhaps you don't deserve that perception.

Not necessarily.  Homophobia's an unreasonable reaction from a great many people, and I don't believe I deserve the kind of vilified perception I get.

Perceptions come from a wide variety of sources, and if that perception is negative I personally want to see something solid to back it up.  Mob rule and cliquish behavior is what put me off Tangency in the first place, and I'm certainly not going to enjoy its entrenchment here any better.

Ergo, I put the onus on those casting aspersions at Curt to put their money (Curt's supposed faux pas') where their mouths are.  Not on Curt to defend himself.

Quote from: JimBobOzLike I said, it's envy. Envy that he got away with so much shit and wasn't even that interested in rpgs. It'd be like having Dominus Nox made a mod here, while Balbinus got banned. Balbinus would feel pissed off, and envy Nox the slack everyone was cutting him. Not that Curt attacked people or expresses as much prejudice as Nox, but still, it's a matter of degree only.

This I can buy.  I just don't like the sexuality terms people couch their assaults on Curt in.

Quote from: JimBobOzAnd ask yourself why a person's sexuality should become an issue at a roleplaying games discussion site. It's that Tangency, again. It's like a big personal blog, only even less interesting. I don't want to hear Blackberry talk about how he manages anal sex when his man has got diaorrhea (which he has discussed). I don't want to hear about RPGPundit's preference for prostitutes over genuine relationships (which he's told us about). I don't want to see fanboys drooling over cosplay pics. That is just shit I don't want to know about, but it pops up all over the place.

It pops up in one place:  Tangency.

Though admittedly I haven't seen this stuff about Pundit you keep going on about.  But really, you're the one who brought it up in this thread.  Do I really care or want to know about Pundit's sexual proclivities?  Not really.  So why is it pertinent?  Did we really need specific examples to illustrate your point here?  Why provide those yet be so reticent to provide examples of Curt's supposed homosexual rabidity?

Quote from: JimBobOzIn the end, I don't care where Curt puts his little willy. He's just a fuckin' BNG.

Then why mention it?  What's his willy got to do with anything?

As was stated a few times over in this thread, it seems Curt's most likely transgression was calling someone's mother a "cum-guzzling whore."  That's got fuck-all to do with Curt being gay.  If it's "ass poster envy" then it's still got fuck-all to do with anything.

It's just a rather nasty little layer of invective that I could do without.

P.S. BNG?

Quote from: RedFoxDude, I'm not a Forge-poster.  You're casting a hypothetical argument as a hypothetical reaction to the response I'm asking for.  It's a strawman.

Not really. More like, a pattern in these sorts of discussions. Quibble, dissemble, "I don't think he means what you think he means," etc.

Quote from: RedFoxNot necessarily.  Homophobia's an unreasonable reaction from a great many people, and I don't believe I deserve the kind of vilified perception I get.

Well, you do ive in the barbaric USA, after all. Still, the vast majority of people express no great bigotry. Naturally you're going to remember the minority who do express bigotry. Can't blame you there. Same with being a Jew - nobody knows until I tell 'em, and when I do tell 'em, I get all sorts of reactions, few of 'em good. Of course, Jews don't suffer the cultural discrimination that homosexuals do, so it's a different thing. Still, you can see what I'm saying - it's easy to focus on the negative responses, forgetting the neutral or positive ones. Human nature.

Quote from: RedFoxDo I really care or want to know about Pundit's sexual proclivities?  Not really.  So why is it pertinent?  Did we really need specific examples to illustrate your point here?  Why provide those yet be so reticent to provide examples of Curt's supposed homosexual rabidity?

I bring up RPGPundit's comments, which you can read here if you've the stomach for it, to demonstrate that I'm not interested in hearing about some gamer geek's sexual proclivities, and that when I see blatant prejudice, I respond to it.

I would not say that Curt is "rabidly" homosexual, I'd say he's paranoid about insults and oppression based on his homosexuality.

Quote from: RedFoxThen why mention it?  What's his willy got to do with anything?

I didn't bring up Curt's sexuality, I brought up his sensitivity about his sexuality. You were saying, "about his sexuality", and I responded, "I don't care where he puts his little willy", and you say, "then why mention it?" I mention it to tell you that I don't care about it; there's no way to say that I don't care about something without mentioning it.

That would be obvious, were you not quibbling.

Quote from: RedFoxAs was stated a few times over in this thread, it seems Curt's most likely transgression was calling someone's mother a "cum-guzzling whore."  That's got fuck-all to do with Curt being gay.

That's true. But his calling another poster's mother a "cum-guzzling whore" has something to do with his sensitivity about his sexuality. It was an angry response to some stupid bastard saying that "that's so gay!" is not always a homophobic comment, or some shit like that.

The issue is not his particular sexuality, but his sensitivity about it. What I'm saying is that some individual's sexuality should not come up as a main topic of conversation on a roleplaying games site. It'd be like someone being sensitive about being in the Green Party. What the fuck has that got to do with dice and cheetos?

His sensitivity about that topic led to his flaming out. He never insulted people while discussing other stuff, just that. It's an issue because he made it an issue, because he was sensitive about it - not because we care about it.

I
don't
care
what
his
sexuality
is

I just care that he is oversensitive about some particular topic, and that when he flames out and insults people because of that sensitivity, they cut him slack.

BNG = Bitter Non-Gamer.

I am increasingly amazed of how important and worthy of discussion here is another RPG forum, which most people around here dislikes. I'm always surprised about how important is to discuss the internal processes of a board in which many people here don't take part.

Quote from: ImperatorI am increasingly amazed of how important and worthy of discussion here is another RPG forum, which most people around here dislikes. I'm always surprised about how important is to discuss the internal processes of a board in which many people here don't take part.

Because we can, and we want to.  The reasons are many and varied and none of them matter to anyone else but ourselves.

Fair enough.

Quote from: RedFoxI might be more amenable to such attitudes if I could get a shred of proof along those lines.  As I mentioned in a previous thread regarding Curt, I haven't seen him call out anyone who didn't deserve it.  That isn't to say he didn't do such, just that I personally don't recollect anything of that nature.  And nobody offered up anything back then either.

Red Fox: I was one of those poor unfortunates whom Curt accused of homophobia ( I haven't bothered to look up the thread - I can try if you really want).