Well. While I don't always learn something new everyday, I did today. Thanks all.

Thinking in context of the quote, I'm guessing the bodkin pointed arrows breaking or glancing were less of an issue than for a crossbow bolt due to the greater number of arrows fired per archer.

Compared to the longbowman, the crossbowman needed to make each quarrel count so a different design makes sense.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864822I've never seen 'Fresh Prince of Bel-Air' so I'm afraid I can't respond to that.

It is the "adventures" of a street-smart teenager from West Philadelphia who is sent to move in with his wealthy aunt and uncle in their Bel Air mansion after getting into a fight on a local basketball court. In the series, his lifestyle often clashes with the lifestyle of his relatives in Bel Air.

So, I was thinking that the country bumpkin newly arrived in the Big City Clanhouse could be that sort of dynamic.

While you profess to not enjoy political style games, others do and they seem to be directing the trend.

I was specifically wondering if you ever had to deal with that type of thing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864822And no, I've never run a Tekumel game.

Any reason that is so?
Just not a GM kinda guy or this inaccessibility that people talk about effected you too?
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Quote from: Greentongue;864930Any reason that is so?
Just not a GM kinda guy or this inaccessibility that people talk about effected you too?
=

He runs other stuff. OD&Dish stuff. He's practically the antithesis of the GM is an inaccessible role available to the select and enlightened few. Nearly anyone can be the DM and make up some shit they think is fun.

Quote from: Bren;864934He runs other stuff. OD&Dish stuff. He's practically the antithesis of the GM is an inaccessible role available to the select and enlightened few. Nearly anyone can be the DM and make up some shit they think is fun.

* sniff *  They grow up so fast...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864957* sniff *  They grow up so fast...

I was kind of shocked anyone didn't know your spiel by heart by now. You certainly natter on about it often enough.

Of course its easier for me since I learned to be a DM/GM/Referee via  the really arcane and difficult process of reading the rules to OD&D then giving being the DM a try. Just like all the other folks I knew in that wave of gaming. Since then I've seen lots of other people with entirely different skills sets, backgrounds, and interests do a fine job of being a DM/GM/Referee by the really arcane and difficult process of giving it a try.

So it would never occur to me that being a DM/GM/Referee was particularly esoteric, arcane, or difficult. It does require a certain level of general intelligence, creativity, and effort. I've played with a few people who were actually not bright enough to be a decent GM. But they are by far the exceptions. Somewhat more often I encounter someone who either doesn't have the interest in exercising their creativity in that direction - which is fine - or who just isn't willing to do enough work to be an adequate GM. Even improvisational GMing requires some minimal effort outside the sessions, for record keeping if for nothing else. If you aren't willing to exert yourself even that much, its better for everyone if you stick to playing.

Quote from: AsenRG;864880Can you expand on that?  Wouldn't it make parries with a Chen blade rather risky?
I mean,  would you even parry with the flat, and how much does a blade bend and vibrate upon impact?

Well, this was LONG before ARMA started their researches.  If I were to reassess the question now, dunno what I'd think.

Quote from: Melichor;864910Square faced bolt heads
Payne-Gallweystates that these bolts were used against armoured oppnents "Other bolts had square-faced heads with four small points, one at each corner of the head, so that they might not glance off armour, but give a straight and smashing blow to mounted men wearing breastplates and helmets, against which the end of a sharp projectile might break, bend, or turn aside."

From this site:  http://www.themcs.org/weaponry/crossbows/crossbows.htm
which has some good pictures about halfway down the page.

What a great site! Thank you!!! and thank you for finding the quote, too!

Quote from: Bren;864911Well. While I don't always learn something new everyday, I did today. Thanks all.

Thinking in context of the quote, I'm guessing the bodkin pointed arrows breaking or glancing were less of an issue than for a crossbow bolt due to the greater number of arrows fired per archer.

Compared to the longbowman, the crossbowman needed to make each quarrel count so a different design makes sense.

I think you have it, here; this all makes a lot of sense! Now I can say that I've learned something today!

Quote from: Bren;864892Good question.

My assumption was that chlen hide weapons were kind of equivalent to bronze, i.e. not glass-like or completely fragile, but significantly more fragile than tempered iron or steel. I believe treated chlen-hide may be lighter than bronze though.

The common use of a material inferior to iron/steel always seemed to be one of the similarities of Tekumel to Glorantha.

Well, "lighter than bronze" would be, in itself, a significant advantage against an unarmoured enemy. I don't know how much the speed and ease of changing directions of knives come from the center of gravity and how much comes from the weight...but it's quite likely going to be faster and harder to defend against than a metal sword.

Agreed on the similarities between Glorantha and Tekumel. But don't tell that to people that are fans of only one of those settings...
(Actually, I find a lot of similarities between these two and Creation as well. As well as more than superficial similarities with Jorune...including how hard Jorune material is to obtain).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864905Well, we tried to figure this all out back in the early days, and until we made some weapons out of engineering plastic we were stumped. The key to the thing is to have a hard cutting edge and a soft backbone. Phil was also of the opinion that the fighting styles were a lot more 'eastern' then 'western', with a lot more slashing and parrying in big swoopy curves; hence the hooks and curves on a lot of his weapons. Tekumel armor reflects this - a lot of deflecting surfaces for glancing blows, rather then the 'head on' attacks you see in a lot of medieval styles.

It's the difference between a tulwar and a broadsword, if I can use that simile.

Weren't the weapons modeled after Phil's collection?
And I'd say there's lots of sweeping curves with Western-style swords, too. Though there's definitely more of them when you use a saber... interestingly, though, concave weapons seem to facilitate "head on", or rather, "head off" attacks, being nearly perfect for both styles!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864907Your assumption is exactly the way Phil looked at the subject. As light as plastic, but as 'hard' as bronze. So it's got some advantages, but the plates have to be made right; the best chlen-hide armor has a hard layer on the outside, but a softer layer as a backing - think laminated 'safety glass'. Normally, the stuff works just fine, but a badly-made plate or sword will shatter if hit in the right way - roll on the table; I think it's in S&G, but I'll look.

Agreed; it's also a typical 1940s - 1950s SF trope, as well, which is where I think Phil got it from.

So, it's like a katana. They can also shatter if struck in a given point of the blade;).
Of course, later you upgrade when you've got the money.

Quote from: Melichor;864910Square faced bolt heads
Payne-Gallweystates that these bolts were used against armoured oppnents "Other bolts had square-faced heads with four small points, one at each corner of the head, so that they might not glance off armour, but give a straight and smashing blow to mounted men wearing breastplates and helmets, against which the end of a sharp projectile might break, bend, or turn aside."

From this site:  http://www.themcs.org/weaponry/crossbows/crossbows.htm
which has some good pictures about halfway down the page.

Yeah, all these rounded plates weren't helping normal arrows to transfer their power:D.

Quote from: Bren;864963 I was kind of shocked anyone didn't know your spiel by heart by now. You certainly natter on about it often enough.

Of course its easier for me since I learned to be a DM/GM/Referee via  the really arcane and difficult process of reading the rules to OD&D then giving being the DM a try. Just like all the other folks I knew in that wave of gaming. Since then I've seen lots of other people with entirely different skills sets, backgrounds, and interests do a fine job of being a DM/GM/Referee by the really arcane and difficult process of giving it a try.

So it would never occur to me that being a DM/GM/Referee was particularly esoteric, arcane, or difficult. It does require a certain level of general intelligence, creativity, and effort. I've played with a few people who were actually not bright enough to be a decent GM. But they are by far the exceptions. Somewhat more often I encounter someone who either doesn't have the interest in exercising their creativity in that direction - which is fine - or who just isn't willing to do enough work to be an adequate GM. Even improvisational GMing requires some minimal effort outside the sessions, for record keeping if for nothing else. If you aren't willing to exert yourself even that much, its better for everyone if you stick to playing.

+1 to all of this, though I learned much later, using GURPS.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865021Well, this was LONG before ARMA started their researches.  If I were to reassess the question now, dunno what I'd think.

I'm asking from the point of view of someone who was trained by HEMA, though. Well, you can make a case for me being influenced by some local "styles", but they're virtually unknown, so let's stick to HEMA as a common point of reference.
So, how hard would it be to defend "properly" (meaning letting it slide off the flat in order not to hurt the cutting edge)? And how hard it would be to preserve your blade from breaking against someone who is also defending "properly", blade to your flat:p?
I must note that the last one is also really popular with Eastern styles that employ big sweeping curving motions;).

Quote from: AsenRG;865046I'm asking from the point of view of someone who was trained by HEMA, though. Well, you can make a case for me being influenced by some local "styles", but they're virtually unknown, so let's stick to HEMA as a common point of reference.
So, how hard would it be to defend "properly" (meaning letting it slide off the flat in order not to hurt the cutting edge)? And how hard it would be to preserve your blade from breaking against someone who is also defending "properly", blade to your flat:p?
I must note that the last one is also really popular with Eastern styles that employ big sweeping curving motions;).

ARMA, HEMA, potato, po tah to.

In either case I haven't reassessed the question, so your hypothesis is as good as mine.  Many Tsolyani weapons have considerable hand protection, and I expect Chlen hide vs Chlen hide to be a tossup.  Phil's art does not show, but would not forbid, reinforcing ribs et al either.

But this is all pure pre-coffee speculation.

Quote from: Greentongue;864930Any reason that is so?
Just not a GM kinda guy or this inaccessibility that people talk about effected you too?
=

I cut my teeth on the concept that every person ran their own setting.  Tekumel was Phil's game, Ram's Horn is mine.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865325I cut my teeth on the concept that every person ran their own setting.  Tekumel was Phil's game, Ram's Horn is mine.

That was the tradition back then, wasn't it? A GM would devise a world, and then run adventures in it.

(This may have come from the miniatures 'campaign' concept, like the one I did with the world as it was in the 1660s, and which revolved around the adventures of John Churchill and the Tangier garrison; the French were constantly plotting with the Arabs to capture the town, and everyone was exploring Darkest Africa - think "The Three Musketeers" meet H. Rider Haggard. This was the campaign where the map had the directions 'Up', 'Down', 'Left', and 'Right' and with none of this hex map nonsense, either; you stepped off your distances with a dividers, like educated people. Top of the line period technology all the way, that was our style.)

Oh, those were the days! Fighting our way through The Piddles (Upper and Lower), the Slaughters, and through High, Middle, and Lo! And Behold. Gronan had gotten his mitts on a large-scale map of southern England, and these are the actual village names...

"On to Piddle, lads!"

Glory Days
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Quote from: chirine ba kal;865359Oh, those were the days! Fighting our way through The Piddles (Upper and Lower), the Slaughters, and through High, Middle, and Lo! And Behold. Gronan had gotten his mitts on a large-scale map of southern England, and these are the actual village names...

"On to Piddle, lads!"

Awww, you remembered!  

One chapter in my book is describing how I took a 17 x 22 map of England from National Geographic and turned it into a series of hex maps with each 5mm hex equalling two miles.  In the late 70s.  Hint:  Does the term "opaque projector" mean anything to you?

And after splashing through the Piddles, we could climb the Mumbles and go to Dorking.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865480Awww, you remembered!  

One chapter in my book is describing how I took a 17 x 22 map of England from National Geographic and turned it into a series of hex maps with each 5mm hex equalling two miles.  In the late 70s.  Hint:  Does the term "opaque projector" mean anything to you?

And after splashing through the Piddles, we could climb the Mumbles and go to Dorking.

It's me job, mate.

Same here. To make the battlefield scenery 'ground sheets' for Phil's battles of Ry and the Temple of Chanis, I had his maps scanned in, printed out as transparencies,  and projected them up on Home Depot canvas painters' drop cloths with an overhead projector. After that, I managed to get an opaque projector - simpler and faster. These days, I use the LCD projector. Still use the drop cloths, though; they are dirt cheap for all the canvas you get. And very few seams, too!

Ah, we were young and naive back in those far-off days, weren't we? Here we all thought we were having some innocent fun over pizza, snacks, and sodas; we had no idea that decades later, learned sages would be poring over the musty debris of our games and peering into flickering Devices of the Ancients to parse and dissect every word we'd leave behind.

(If I had known, I would have left behind much more juicy stuff; Jon Peterson would be banned in Boston.)

And it was spring; the Piddle was in full flood. I had to change my armor, 'cause I got all soaked. I think I caught a cold, too...