Quote from: AsenRG;864729A kaitar for a single bolt?!?
Why didn't you shoot gold?
Or that's what I imagine a Tsolyani bureaucrat saying, at least.

We bought steel-headed quarrels rather like the top center one in this picture.

https://www.google.com/search?q=crossbow+quarrel+heads&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMIk5qSosaWyQIVR0YmCh0_hgEA&biw=1280&bih=864#tbm=isch&q=crossbow+quarrel+square+head&imgrc=IOJPe6_5cUSwJM%3A

Any kind of arrowhead is okay against light troops, but those square heads would shred mail like tissue and were pretty good against Chlen hide plate too.

Phil and Chirine and I had all read Payne-Gallway's "The Crossbow".

Quote from: Greentongue;864710I get the feeling that the current imagining of Playing in Tekumel is like a game of "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air" in an alien setting.
Am I wrong or is this what all the focus on clan is to facilitate?

I've never seen 'Fresh Prince of Bel-Air' so I'm afraid I can't respond to that.

And no, I've never run a Tekumel game.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864821We bought steel-headed quarrels rather like the top center one in this picture.

You realize there are ten quarrels in the top row, right? The center one is which one?

Fifth from the left, tanged rather than socketed.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864829Fifth from the left, tanged rather than socketed.

I'm surprised.

That one has four rather blunt "points" rather than a single point which would create a striking surface that is more than 4x larger in area than any of the other points. Which would spread the force of the blow across more than 4 times the area since the points are blunter. I would think that would be far worse penetration for the same amount of force than any of the other bolts.

In addition, the point does not taper, in fact the width of the point increases behind the head would also tend to make a deep penetration more difficult.

Granted the head looks more massive than most of the others which should increase the force of the blow. But the head of, say the one in the top row, third from the right (which is also tanged) looks to be almost as massive as the fifth from the left and it has a single needle pointed tip. I would think that would have better penetration, akin to a bodkin pointed arrow compared to a broad tipped hunting arrow.

Am I missing something here?

I think the idea is that we're shooting at either unarmored people or in chlen-hide armor; the latter is like an engineering plastic - I showed Phil a Delrin plate that I'd gotten from my engineer dad, and he really thought that it was a very good approximation - and does tend to shatter under forceful impacts. Chlen hide is about as tough as bronze, but more 'frangible'. It's why steel or other metal armor makes such a difference in Tekumel's combat.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864850I think the idea is that we're shooting at either unarmored people or in chlen-hide armor; the latter is like an engineering plastic - I showed Phil a Delrin plate that I'd gotten from my engineer dad, and he really thought that it was a very good approximation - and does tend to shatter under forceful impacts. Chlen hide is about as tough as bronze, but more 'frangible'. It's why steel or other metal armor makes such a difference in Tekumel's combat.

Can you expand on that?  Wouldn't it make parries with a Chen blade rather risky?
I mean,  would you even parry with the flat, and how much does a blade bend and vibrate upon impact?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864821Any kind of arrowhead is okay against light troops, but those square heads would shred mail like tissue and were pretty good against Chlen hide plate too.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864850I think the idea is that we're shooting at either unarmored people or in chlen-hide armor; the latter is like an engineering plastic - I showed Phil a Delrin plate that I'd gotten from my engineer dad, and he really thought that it was a very good approximation - and does tend to shatter under forceful impacts. Chlen hide is about as tough as bronze, but more 'frangible'. It's why steel or other metal armor makes such a difference in Tekumel's combat.

What you are saying seems to be that penetration is not an issue since the opponent is either unarmored or in armor that shatters on impact. That seems contrary to what Gronan said, which was that the advantage of the square point was against armored, not unarmored targets e.g. "shred mail like tissue".

Hopefully Gronan will pop back in and clarify.

Quote from: AsenRG;864880Can you expand on that?  Wouldn't it make parries with a Chen blade rather risky?
I mean,  would you even parry with the flat, and how much does a blade bend and vibrate upon impact?

Good question.

My assumption was that chlen hide weapons were kind of equivalent to bronze, i.e. not glass-like or completely fragile, but significantly more fragile than tempered iron or steel. I believe treated chlen-hide may be lighter than bronze though.

The common use of a material inferior to iron/steel always seemed to be one of the similarities of Tekumel to Glorantha.

The square headed quarrels were considered "armor piercing."  A sharp bodkin point MIGHT pop the rivets on a mail shirt, but also had the danger of breaking.  I'm basing my comments on Payne-Gallway; the square headed quarrel was very popular in the Middle Ages.

I'm no longer au courant on the physics.  For that matter it's been over 25 years since I read Payne-Gallway.

Quote from: AsenRG;864880Can you expand on that?  Wouldn't it make parries with a Chen blade rather risky?
I mean,  would you even parry with the flat, and how much does a blade bend and vibrate upon impact?

Well, we tried to figure this all out back in the early days, and until we made some weapons out of engineering plastic we were stumped. The key to the thing is to have a hard cutting edge and a soft backbone. Phil was also of the opinion that the fighting styles were a lot more 'eastern' then 'western', with a lot more slashing and parrying in big swoopy curves; hence the hooks and curves on a lot of his weapons. Tekumel armor reflects this - a lot of deflecting surfaces for glancing blows, rather then the 'head on' attacks you see in a lot of medieval styles.

It's the difference between a tulwar and a broadsword, if I can use that simile.

Quote from: Bren;864890What you are saying seems to be that penetration is not an issue since the opponent is either unarmored or in armor that shatters on impact. That seems contrary to what Gronan said, which was that the advantage of the square point was against armored, not unarmored targets e.g. "shred mail like tissue".

Hopefully Gronan will pop back in and clarify.

Yep. It only takes something like two to three inches to get a serious wound from penetration, I've been told, so the shock value of the bolt hitting somebody was pretty useful.

See also Payne-Gallway; Sir Ralph shot a lot of botls at a lot of different types of targets in different types of armor. I'll have a look in my copy and see if I can't locate the test results.

Quote from: Bren;864892Good question.

My assumption was that chlen hide weapons were kind of equivalent to bronze, i.e. not glass-like or completely fragile, but significantly more fragile than tempered iron or steel. I believe treated chlen-hide may be lighter than bronze though.

The common use of a material inferior to iron/steel always seemed to be one of the similarities of Tekumel to Glorantha.

Your assumption is exactly the way Phil looked at the subject. As light as plastic, but as 'hard' as bronze. So it's got some advantages, but the plates have to be made right; the best chlen-hide armor has a hard layer on the outside, but a softer layer as a backing - think laminated 'safety glass'. Normally, the stuff works just fine, but a badly-made plate or sword will shatter if hit in the right way - roll on the table; I think it's in S&G, but I'll look.

Agreed; it's also a typical 1940s - 1950s SF trope, as well, which is where I think Phil got it from.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864895The square headed quarrels were considered "armor piercing."  A sharp bodkin point MIGHT pop the rivets on a mail shirt, but also had the danger of breaking.  I'm basing my comments on Payne-Gallway; the square headed quarrel was very popular in the Middle Ages.

I'm no longer au courant on the physics.  For that matter it's been over 25 years since I read Payne-Gallway.

This. I'll look in my copy.

Square faced bolt heads
Payne-Gallweystates that these bolts were used against armoured oppnents "Other bolts had square-faced heads with four small points, one at each corner of the head, so that they might not glance off armour, but give a straight and smashing blow to mounted men wearing breastplates and helmets, against which the end of a sharp projectile might break, bend, or turn aside."

From this site:  http://www.themcs.org/weaponry/crossbows/crossbows.htm
which has some good pictures about halfway down the page.