I found Traveller skill generation oddly random, but I guess that -- like going to college being an 'advanced' and unusual option -- can be taken as the way things really work in the far-future world. I approach it "in character" most of the time, but sometimes I reverse engineer from the results.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;862085You pick your race.

Whether that's dissociated or not is arguable (you're choosing to play an Elf, not choosing to make yourself into an Elf). We could look for an OD&D clone where you can only play humans (I've found one with a quick google). Similarly we could discuss whether choosing your character's name is dissociated (or whether it has no mechanical bearing on the game so is not a mechanic, or whether your character could change their name so its their choice). On a similar track we could discuss whether purely random character generation is dissociated or not. I'm sure I could argue either way with each of them, but I think my choice is influenced by not wishing to change my initial stance.

I think it's an interesting to consider the types of choices made in creation and advancement, but I don't think dissociated is best suited. Perhaps one for deeper thought or another thread.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;862085Sure. But you've just named a grand total of two systems...

This is like saying that D&D is only one system.

Quote from: Bren;862131This is like saying that D&D is only one system.

... and I'm officially done playing silly semantic games with you. Are you seriously claiming that 100% associated character creation and character advancement mechanics aren't a tiny, tiny minority of RPG systems? Or are you just faffing about?

Quote from: JoeNuttall;862111Whether that's dissociated or not is arguable (you're choosing to play an Elf, not choosing to make yourself into an Elf).

It might be arguable, but based on your parenthetical statement you're arguing that it IS dissociated.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;862188It might be arguable, but based on your parenthetical statement you're arguing that it IS dissociated.

No, I am arguing that it's a decision made before you have a character, so it can't be dissociated, or associated. It's a decision like which game am I going to play. But, as I said, it's not a profitable argument.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;862188... and I'm officially done playing silly semantic games with you. Are you seriously claiming that 100% associated character creation and character advancement mechanics aren't a tiny, tiny minority of RPG systems? Or are you just faffing about?

Well that would be a wonderful change. After all you started the silly semantic games by claiming that associated character advancement and generation are "extremely rare" when they aren't. To make that claim you have to ignore several of the best known, most played, and longest existing RPGs. Games that are foundational in the move away from D&D-like level-based games. But rather than just admit you were wrong, you want to count the various Chaosium series of popular games as one system, while presumably counting OD&D and all it's various versions, flavors, and emulators among your unnamed cast of thousands of RPGs to try and rescue your silly point by turning this into a rigged counting contest. How many of those thousands of games are as well known among gamers as the games I mentioned? Five? Ten?

.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;862188... and I'm officially done playing silly semantic games with you. Are you seriously claiming that 100% associated character creation and character advancement mechanics aren't a tiny, tiny minority of RPG systems?

No, I am seriously claiming that nobody gives a fuck about "associated" mechanics, whatever the fuck they are.  That reads like the worst excesses of forgespeak.

It's become a common word; the concept behind it shouldn't be too hard to someone who's gone to seminary. I would have chosen "simulative", but Justin wrote a web page and his term gained currency.

It just means that the mechanics represent things that the character would perceive in the game-world, and the player's understanding and relationship to those mechanics are analogous to the character's. E.g., while you can choose where you want to go to college, you aren't guaranteed admittance. So an associated mechanic for a character's education might involve picking a school, then rolling dice modified by personal traits (say, intelligence and willpower, for how good a student you are) and socioeconomic class to see if you are admitted. A dissociated mechanic might involve paying an abstract token (that represents nothing discernible to a character in the game world) out of a limited pool.

Or in a wargame, suppose you wanted to spice things up with odd events like a probing attack being stalled because the soldiers ran into swarm of angry bees. An associated mechanic might handle random events by rolling on a table and applying whatever comes up. A dissociated mechanic might let each player draw cards into a hand and play them--the beehive will appear not because it happened to be in a place that neither side would have foreseen, but because one player or the other strategically "activated" it, at a time & place of their choosing, and with foreknowledge that it would be available since it was in their hand.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;862188It might be arguable, but based on your parenthetical statement you're arguing that it IS dissociated.

If choosing your race in D&D is dissociated, then Mongoose Traveller character generation (and possible also other Travellers; MgT is the only one I have handy) is at least somewhat dissociated:

"To determine your character's characteristics, roll 2d6 six times and allocate them to the six basic characteristics in any order." (p.6)

"If you came from a planet already established by Traveller books or by the Referee, then consult those sources for the planet's description. Otherwise, just note down what traits you chose for your homeworld" (p.6)

Why does anyone care about "dissociated" character creation?  This is the kind of circlejerk nonsense that made the Forge and r.g.f.misc useless in the end.  There really aren't enough players who are worried about this kind of crapola to make a gaming group.

Usually because certain instances of dissociated mechanics are often used as the thin edge of the wedge to try to "prove" that disliking dissociated mechanics in play is irrational.

Not that I think it happened here--it seems the thread started with an open question as to why it isn't irrational.

Quote from: Arminius;862300Usually because certain instances of dissociated mechanics are often used as the thin edge of the wedge to try to "prove" that disliking dissociated mechanics in play is irrational.

Describing play preferences as "rational" or "irrational" seems to entirely miss the point that they are preferences.

I wouldn't expect preferences about what kind of game someone likes to be a matter of reason, anymore than I would expect reason to determine whether someone likes or dislikes the taste of Tutti-Frutti ice cream. Someone using the term "rational" starts out as if they think they will be able to argue someone else into changing their taste or preference. And that's not happening.

Yeah, but it does happen--the arguing not the convincing.

I'd say, though that a preference can be analyzed and articulated, probably with some profit. That's criticism in a useful sense.

Quote from: Arminius;862325Yeah, but it does happen--the arguing not the convincing.

Oh yeah it happens all the fricking time. I was just pointing out the futility of the attempt.

QuoteI'd say, though that a preference can be analyzed and articulated, probably with some profit. That's criticism in a useful sense.

Sure it's useful to know that heavy on the hops makes the beer taste a way I don't fancy. But that's only useful because there are other beers that taste in a way I do fancy. Coconut, on the other  hand, doesn't need analysis. There isn't anyway in which the taste or texture ever appeals to me. So the utility for any given person likely depends on whether narrative techniques and play style is more like one's personal version of beer or of coconut.

Quote from: Bren;862200Well that would be a wonderful change. After all you started the silly semantic games by claiming that associated character advancement and generation are "extremely rare" when they aren't. To make that claim you have to ignore several of the best known, most played, and longest existing RPGs.

I told you I was done playing your silly semantic games. Your refusal to provide a straightforward answer to the question actually under discussion only serves to confirm that you are deliberately faffing about.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;862257Why does anyone care about "dissociated" character creation?

Prior to this thread I would have said absolutely no one (which was, in fact, my point). But apparently Bren cares a lot. On the other hand, Bren also apparently believes that the only reason BRP-based games don't make up a significant percentage of published RPGs is because people are trying to "rig" things by counting multiple editions of D&D as being different games.