Well, that's all good to hear. I guess it's less of an issue than I thought.

I use milestone XP so it's not as big a deal. I think we've played 30 sessions and everyone is around level 4.

Quote from: Skarg;860611In several threads around the net, I've read that there are frequent mid-combat resurrections in 5e? Is PC permadeath infrequent in 5e?

That (and the rule some groups use where dead PCs mean you roll up a new one at the current "party level") seems like it would also make the game expect to shoot PCs up to high levels (as opposed to some of them dying and starting new level one characters).

3rd level spell Revify. Raises a person who has died within the last minute with 1 HP. Clerics do not get it till level 5. Clerics do not get Raise Dead until level 9 which is the same level Druids get Reincarnate.

What you were likely hearing was the complaining that it is supposedly bitchingly hard to kill the PCs. In 5e when you go to 0 you have about 3-5 rounds where you may either recover with 1 HP. Or die. As in AD&D though anyone can try to stabalize a fallen member.

While in this 0 HP state the PC can take an absurd amount of punishment.

What the detractors miss though is that attacks on the fallen have advantage and any hit is an automatic critical. Which counts as 2 failed death saves. 3 fails and thats it for your character. Bullywugs and other multi-attack monsters are a real terror for fallen characters now.

So on one hand the PCs are harder to kill, and on the other they are easier to kill.

Quote from: Necrozius;860683Weird. My 5e campaign is about to reach 1 year old and we played nearly every two weeks. The highest level the PCs have reached is 6th.

And, for the record, I don't bother with CR. If the PCs accidentally come face to face with a Vampire, Storm Giant or Mummy at levels 2-4 (which has happened) that's just it. No character deaths yet.

Mummies are much lower CR than they used to be. While still tough, their vulnerability to fire, combined with infinite fire cantrips, make them pretty beatable even at low levels.

Quote from: aspiringlich;860712Well, that's all good to hear. I guess it's less of an issue than I thought.

PCs are much harder to kill past the first few levels. They either have to get hit 3 times while already at 0 (only reasonable with lots of monsters), or have nobody do any healing at all to them for a few rounds and also be unlucky...or just be really unlucky with no help for two rounds.

The "instadeath" rule can kill a character, but only if the monster can deal as much damage as the character's starting hit points--most monsters won't be able to do that kind of damage to a character past 4rd level, outside of incredible flukes (dragons being the notable exception).

As far as leveling goes, characters really don't seem like they're supposed to be level 1 for long. Low level monsters hit much more accurately and for more damage (plus the possibility of crits) than in older versions of D&D. An AD&D first level fighter with good armor/shield could realistically last several rounds against 4 kobolds, but it unlikely to last two against that many attacking at once in 5e.

In short, it's probably best, unless you're not doing much combat, to get characters through the first two levels in a handful of sessions at best.

For levels past 3, it's totally up to the DM. Yes, the EP numbers are different than in older editions, but this is meaningless. Ultimately, level advancement is completely subject to how the DM runs the game, the numbers are just a rough guide that, I reckon, is ignored to some extent at every table (as it was in most every other edition; curiously, 4e was the only edition I played where following the EP award numbers closely actually worked).

Cue the fan club in 3...2....1....

Quote from: Warthur;860660Obvious caveat here is that 4E is built on a level 1-30 scale rather than a 1-20 scale, but even so it's quite clear that once you hit level 5, 4E actually ends up with a much slower level progression than any previous Wizards of the Coast edition of D&D.

With 3e xp has no platonic value, 1 xp means more the higher level you get.
My experience is that 3e & Pathfinder progression rate is quite similar to 5e after the first couple levels, but the power increase per level is much more so it feels much faster. My Pathfinder campaign started at level 2 and wrapped up yesterday at level 14 after 34 tabletop sessions; 12 level-ups so 2.8 sessions/level, but in the single digit levels it was generally 2 sessions/level. Similar to 5e, BUT 3e/PF PCs double in power every 2 levels, they start feeling like demigods around level 11. 5e PCs feel much much more grounded, I'd say they double in power more like every 4 levels (faster 1-5) so it doesn't feel nearly so weird.

4e PCs double in power about every 4 levels, much like 5e PCs. XP awards look similar - it's designed around 10 standard awards to level - but the fights are much much slower than in 5e and this keeps the actual speed of progression down. My 4e campaign started at level 1 and is level 25 after 92 sessions, 24 level ups so 3.8 sessions/level. It was 2-3 sessions at low level and has been very consistently averaging 4 sessions/level for most of the campaign.

My experience is that in practice 3e/PF levels fastest and has the fastest power progression, 5e next, and 4e is the slowest.

I'm also running a Classic D&D campaign, PCs currently around level 6. It seems to be around 3-5 sessions to level (the recommended rate in the Rules Cyclopedia as I recall), and actual PC power increases more slowly than 3e/PF but similar to 5e and 4e, maybe a bit faster.

Quote from: Doom;860719Mummies are much lower CR than they used to be. While still tough, their vulnerability to fire, combined with infinite fire cantrips, make them pretty beatable even at low levels.

A lot of monsters are much lower CR than previously - eg I was surprised Manticores are only CR 3 now - which works ok if you run it like 4e with PCs normally fighting groups of monsters. Also, higher level monsters are much more fightable than in 3e; they may get lucky and kill PCs, but they are definitely beatable. Conversely, bounded accuracy means hordes of low level monsters are much more dangerous than in 3e.

Overall I like the change - the paucity of monsters above CR 10 was initially surprising, but the intent seems to be that high level PCs fight lots of mid-CR monsters, hordes of low-CR monsters, or the occasional high-CR solo monster.

I'm running 5e weekly and sometimes even twice a week for about 7 months now and so far the highest character -- a handful of character deaths included -- is at level 6.
I don't play with challenge ratings, because I'm running a sandbox and give out xp awards not only for monsters, but for bigger investigative accomplishments.

Quote from: Doom;860721They either have to get hit 3 times while already at 0 (only reasonable with lots of monsters)

The "instadeath" rule can kill a character, but only if the monster can deal as much damage as the character's starting hit points--most monsters won't be able to do that kind of damage to a character past 4rd level, outside of incredible flukes (dragons being the notable exception).

Cue the fan club in 3...2....1....

1: incorrect. the downed character just has to get hit twice and they are gone. 1 hit = auto critical = 2 automatic failed saves out of 3. Or hit once and fail their death check. As noted. A bullywug can wipe you out in one round as it has 2 attacks. if both connect then thats 4 fails and ta-ta.

2: The insta-death rule isnt even a factor past a point. And doesnt effect 0hp targets if you read the rules on that one way. As some did. YMMV of course. Past level 1 I stopped checking as it wasnt likely to happen short of something catastrophic which is likely going to kill the character anyhow.

3: Not me. I've made vocal my various irks with parts of 5e. It works fine. But could have been better. Though is easy enough to tweak. Lockdown initiative, cantrip damage , and the whole 0 HP mechanic are three.

Just a kobold with two daggers 5' away from the downed PC can do it. But as a GM I try not to run my monsters like a crack squad of Navy SEALs. A little opportunism goes a long way, so I still keep things lethal, just not coordinated vindictiveness.

As for the rules on how to gut PCs quickly while down, here:

Unconscious
• An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the
condition), can't move or speak, and is unaware
of its surroundings.
• The creature drops whatever it's holding and
falls prone.
• The creature automatically fails Strength and
Dexterity saving throws.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
• Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the
attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.
(Basic D&D 5e, Aug 2014. p. 105.)


Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while
you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw
failure. If the damage is from a critical hit, you suffer
two failures instead. If the damage equals or exceeds
your hit point maximum, you suffer instant death.
(Basic D&D 5e, Aug 2014. p. 76.)

As it being an issue... Popping people back up from unconsciousness can feel like a thing to the GM. It can feel like whack-a-mole, yet as a GM I don't care about keeping players down and out. 5e players are to feel a sense of urgency as they work Lay on Hands, Heal Kit + Healer feat, or Heal spells, as they try to juggle combat.

If it becomes a thing there's always the three solutions of: give monsters death saves, or make monsters ensure players stay down, or remove that rule. I think of death saves as swooning from shock, a la Final Fantasy, not death per se. It's its own conceit.

I describe the 0 HP state differently depending on the situation. It could be bleeding out, it could be unconscious, it could be dazed and immobilized, etc.

It does feel silly or like its trivializing the threat of death when someone gets downed and then revived like 8 times in a row.

Mainly because after being downed and revived several times the downed PC could have absorbed several times their own HP worth of damage, just separately instead of all at once.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;860825I describe the 0 HP state differently depending on the situation. It could be bleeding out, it could be unconscious, it could be dazed and immobilized, etc.

It does feel silly or like its trivializing the threat of death when someone gets downed and then revived like 8 times in a row.

Mainly because after being downed and revived several times the downed PC could have absorbed several times their own HP worth of damage, just separately instead of all at once.

As my fan club points out, it's generally more reasonable to say 2 hits on a downed character will kill him (plus the hit that knocks him down to 0), instead of the completely wrong 3 I claimed earlier (not counting ranged attacks).

Like you, I donn't necessarily take "knocked to 0" as unconscious, instead treating it, usually, as just incapacitated. I'm still a little conflicted about it--most fatal blows don't instantaneously knock people unconscious, instead they generally suffer and bleed first, which is how I interpreted the "death saving throw" mechanic.

I'll see if my players want to go to the official rules, or switch to them as they gain some levels. I'm averaging a PC death a week in the new campaign (everyone's level 2), so not exactly motivated to make death more common as yet.

We generally read it as similar to AD&D where it is the hit that takes you down that actually hits the meat. The rest is wearing down stamina, skill, luck, whatever to keep from being seriously harmed.

So you go to 0 and either start bleeding or go into shock or who knows what.

Then a cat comes along and bites you twice and you die. :eek:

This will likely slow down the levelling at least.

People still die in the real world from slipping into unconsciousness by shock, quite often even. Something like 1 in 5 die from it still, and there's several major types of shock. As a descriptive concept, that leaves the condition unconsciousness, it works for me.

That and those other terms are already keyworded with their own mechanics. (Incapacitated directly, dazed=stunned, immobilized=paralyzed, etc.) I try to avoid descriptive overlap with extant rules when I can. I don't want any table confusion, hence I use shock as part of the description instead.

As for it looking weird, it definiltely can. But there's only a few main sources for bouncing someone back into battle, and most of them are magical or class features. The feat suggests a remarkable combat medic capacity, and as a feat it's optional. Think of it as rescuing someone from the brink by otherworldly intervention or very strong medicine. Like an adrenaline shot through the breastbone to the heart.

As for 8 times in a combat... I've seen around 5 or 6 max. When it's that often the party's in a tough fight, definitely surviving by a surplus of healing options. However I could see an argument for it limited to a PC's Hit Dice — or costing a Hit Die.

The game's already lethal enough as is though, so I don't see a pressing need.