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13th Age more D&D than 2E and 5E?

Started by Ulairi, October 15, 2015, 08:04:03 PM

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Ulairi

October 15, 2015, 08:04:03 PM
Jonathan Tweet, one of the designed of 3E and the designer of the 13th Age did a Reddit AMA (ask me anything) yesterday and I found something interesting:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3oq1iy/im_rpg_designer_jonathan_tweet_lead_designer_on/

QuoteThat's a big question, and I'll probably be able to answer several follow up questions on this topic.
I'm proud of 3E, and I'm glad that Paizo rescued it when Wizards ditched it. I like a lot of the improvements that 4E made, but I was not happy with the overall package. With 3E, we tried hard to make the game feel more like D&D than 2E did, but 4E made the game feel less like D&D, actually less than 2E. A problem with 3E was too many player options and not enough balance. A problem with 4E was too few player options and too much balance.
It's hard for me to play 3E these days because the balance issues are too clear to me. I'm not really interested in playing 4E, either, because it's too boardgamey. 5E has some surprisingly nice bits, but it doesn't seemed tuned for the serious play that my group engages in. That's why Rob Heinsoo and I wrote 13th Age.

I may be really stupid but I wasn't familiar with the 13th Age prior to this AMA. I have read the 5E books and played through the starter adventure as well as the Dragon Queen module. I have played 2E extensively.

I checked out the 13th Age website and it doesn't seem, to me, to be a call back to AD&D (1E) and it seems to me not in the same vein both in play and in tone. Am I missing something? Should I pick up the book? I enjoy D&D to play like AD&D (1E/2E). 5E does that, for me, more so than 3E did and certainly more than 4E.

Omega

#1
October 15, 2015, 08:10:30 PM
Sounds like Tweets usual spindoctoring to promote his latest whatever. This is nothing new.

cranebump

#2
October 15, 2015, 08:20:14 PM
He's wrong about 5E. As for his system, I purchased a copy, read it, then gave it away. It's a better version of 4E, but it still feels like 4E to me.
"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest at first with heavenly shows..."

James Gillen

#3
October 15, 2015, 08:29:16 PM
I think 13th Age is a 4E that sorta works.

JG
-My own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass.
 -Christopher Hitchens
-Be very very careful with any argument that calls for hurting specific people right now in order to theoretically help abstract people later.
-Daztur

Omega

#4
October 15, 2015, 08:43:30 PM
Quote from: James Gillen;860217I think 13th Age is a 4E that sorta works.

JG

That would be 4e D&D Gamma World.

No. Really. One of the most common good things people say about the game, after saying how much they hate the not-GW-setting, is that it was a 4e that worked.

YMMV of course.

Armchair Gamer

#5
October 15, 2015, 09:03:03 PM
It may feel more like D&D to Tweet, although in comparison to what he says about 2E later on, it seems to be missing nudity, occultism, and general grime and foulness in comparison to his ideal. :) But that AMA suggested several things to me, among them:
1) "D&D feel" can vary substantially depending on when, where and how one started with the game.
2) Let me take 4E, the 2E settings, and a few other odds and ends, and I'll happily leave 'D&D' to the OSR, Tweet, Mearls and the other Gygaxolators. :)

estar

#6
October 15, 2015, 09:09:57 PM
Quote from: Ulairi;860205I may be really stupid but I wasn't familiar with the 13th Age prior to this AMA. I have read the 5E books and played through the starter adventure as well as the Dragon Queen module. I have played 2E extensively.

I checked out the 13th Age website and it doesn't seem, to me, to be a call back to AD&D (1E) and it seems to me not in the same vein both in play and in tone. Am I missing something? Should I pick up the book? I enjoy D&D to play like AD&D (1E/2E). 5E does that, for me, more so than 3E did and certainly more than 4E.

He has rules to sell so he going to spin it like rules will fix your problems.

The problem he refers to is not rules but how people use the rules. The only thing that fixes that is people behaving differently. Which is of no use if you have rulebooks to sell.

You should buy 13th age for itself. Based on whether you like how the setting flows with the mechanics. If you have problem like rules lawyering or the feel of the game then 13th Age (or any RPG for that matter) is not going to fix it.

Simlasa

#7
October 15, 2015, 09:31:51 PM
It seems to be the general marketing push for 13th Age that it is 'more D&D than D&D'... or something. That's the sort of thing I keep reading from it's fans.
Funny that the descriptions of it I've read don't sound like D&D at all to me... or rather, it sounds like D&D for people who think they're too hip to be playing D&D.

ostap bender

#8
October 16, 2015, 04:54:03 AM
13th age is a cool, west coast, couisin. he drives great car, has great stories but when he gets drunk he lets the cool facade slip and he can be too much like that 4e guy.

mAcular Chaotic

#9
October 16, 2015, 08:43:25 AM
I asked around on Twitter and was told it resembles a midway point between 3.5 and 4E.
Battle doesn\'t need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don\'t ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don\'t ask why I fight.

jadrax

#10
October 16, 2015, 09:06:02 AM
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;860287I asked around on Twitter and was told it resembles a midway point between 3.5 and 4E.

Character generation is midway between 3.5 and 4th.

But the fact that it uses abstract range bands made it feel very different to me in actual play.

Orphan81

#11
October 16, 2015, 09:39:19 AM
It's a tall order and slightly arrogant to say "My game is more like Dungeons and Dragons than 5th edition is".

I can't say I agree with his statement.
1)Don't let anyone's political agenda interfere with your enjoyment of games, regardless of their 'side'.

2) Don't forget to talk about things you enjoy. Don't get mired in constant negativity.

Tahmoh

#12
October 16, 2015, 10:16:20 AM
Tweet as usual is full of shit and trying to peddle his substandard fantasy game as some new form d&d for hipsters and the dispossessed leftovers of the 4vengers bunch, it's about as d&d as 4e was at it's worst and 3.x was at its high point of rules nonsense...i'll stick with 1e or 5e since they actually are d&d and do a far superior job at being that than 13th age will ever manage.

tenbones

#13
October 16, 2015, 11:29:50 AM
I was reading that AMA yesterday and just laughed. Everytime someone brought up 5e he just had to verbally bait and switch to 13th Age so blatantly.

I get he's got a game to sell. But he definitely is too dismissive of 5e. And personally I'm with most of you - it's plays like a 4e hack.

I will note it's good to see some contrition on his part about 3.x - the amount of flack I've gotten making those same accusations, especially when debating this shit with Mearls and editorial at Paizo when we were both doing features for them, was frustrating to say the least. Don't get me started on the fanboys of 3.x/PF...

Omega

#14
October 16, 2015, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: tenbones;860304I will note it's good to see some contrition on his part about 3.x - the amount of flack I've gotten making those same accusations, especially when debating this shit with Mearls and editorial at Paizo when we were both doing features for them, was frustrating to say the least. Don't get me started on the fanboys of 3.x/PF...

The joys of being on the other side of the desk in the gaming biz. Few players have even the slightest idea of how fucked up things can be from the designer and publisher side.
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