Quote from: JoeNuttall;852675Thanks for the vote of confidence ;-)

If you were the DM, your welcome. If you were the player, I just call 'em as I see 'em.

QuoteDoes anyone care to describe the room I referenced in this 10' 20' 30' style? I'd say "The door opens onto a balcony above a large high pillared chamber lit by a chandelier, a central fire pit, and braziers against the walls. A dozen or so Goblins are engaged in torturing several prisoners. Three hang in cages from the ceiling, two are strapped to racks and there's an iron maiden against the far wall. Around the chamber are archways leading to alcoves. You can't see any other exits from up here, but you can't see all the room." The shape of the room and the number and position of pillars and alcoves is not of particular interest, and these details would become apparent when I sketched the parts of the room that the players can see. If they enter the room I'll sketch the rest of it. Often we'll go quite a while with pure verbal description before I update the map for clarification.

I don't have the adventure. What does it look like?

Quote from: Bren;852733I don't have the adventure. What does it look like?

Here it is.

Quote from: Xúc xắc;846945When you're running an adventure that comes with a map, whether it's one you made yourself or one included in a commercial module, what do you do with it?

Depends on whether it's my home game, a G+ hangouts game or a convention game.

In my home game, with 4-6 people that all know me, I verbally describe in the traditional method and they map on graph paper. If I see them do something obviously fucked up, I stop and clarify, because maybe we had miscommunication and also, their PCs are, in theory, actually present, so they wouldn't put the door on the wrong wall, the passage splitting incorrectly, etc.

In an online G+ hangouts game, I draw a very basic map, almost like a flow chart, on a doodle pad for everyone to see as they travel. Keeps everyone on the same page and the game moving. Seems to work well. Yes, it removes the Map Challenge element, which some consider sacrilege, but I have found that the medium (G+) requires a little compromise to run smoothly.

In a convention game, where it can be loud, people may not know each other at all and there is usually a time constraint, I'll just draw it out on a battle mat. Again, sacrilege, but one I'm comfortable committing under the circumstances. I don't want to waste people's time dicking around with some random dude over constant variations of "ON the tenth foot or AFTER the tenth foot." One exception here. If you are playing something like Kuntz' Bottle City or some other specifically mapping intensive module, then you can't map it for them. Defeats the purpose. In these cases, I would make this very clear in the event description so that everyone's on the same page when play begins.

Quote from: JoeNuttall;852823Here it is.

Thanks. I'm having difficulty reading it. Partly because I am unused to the blue on blue format which seems needlessly difficult. Blue for the grid and black for the walls would be a more visually distinguishable. Also I don't know which entrance you are assuming the PCs enter from. But assuming they come in from the secret door on the south* I'd say something like this.

The altar** tilts upwards showing you a narrow doorway. Beyond is a 10’x20’ rectangular alcove running east-west. Your entrance is on the eastern half of the southern wall. There is a pillar centered on the north edge of the alcove which is open to a much larger rectangular chamber 40’ wide which runs north out of your sight. Two rows of pillars also extend to the north dividing forming three aisles in the rectangular room: a wide center aisle and two narrower side aisles sort of like a modern church. There appears to be a wide opening, perhaps 10’ wide, of some sort on the west wall that is 10’ from the southern wall.  What do you do?


* I assume north is at the top of the map.

**  The odd step-like thing by the secret door on the south. It may not be an altar but that's my best guess without a key.

Quote from: Bren;852914Thanks. I'm having difficulty reading it. Partly because I am unused to the blue on blue format which seems needlessly difficult. Blue for the grid and black for the walls would be a more visually distinguishable.

Ha ha - all the old TSR modules had blue maps! Not a clue why they did it as it isn't clear.

Quote from: Bren;852914Also I don't know which entrance you are assuming the PCs enter from. But assuming they come in from the secret door on the south* I'd say something like this.

As per my description they come in from the door onto the balcony above the stairs, which is the north door. That odd shape on the south wall is the iron maiden. I do agree the map is far from clear though, even when full size.

Quote from: Bren;852914The altar** tilts upwards showing you a narrow doorway. Beyond is a 10'x20' rectangular alcove running east-west. Your entrance is on the eastern half of the southern wall. There is a pillar centered on the north edge of the alcove which is open to a much larger rectangular chamber 40' wide which runs north out of your sight. Two rows of pillars also extend to the north dividing forming three aisles in the rectangular room: a wide center aisle and two narrower side aisles sort of like a modern church. There appears to be a wide opening, perhaps 10' wide, of some sort on the west wall that is 10' from the southern wall.  What do you do?

That's about half the features of the room, and I couldn't draw it from that description. What about the stairs to the balcony, and the other recesses on the right and left? From the entrance you thought they came in by they can see the left one but not the right one. (It's lit by a chandelier as per my description). And you've got to fit in the most important features, the prisoners and the torturers ;-)
Describing the room in this style would be possible but it's an intellectual exercise. The only way to do it sensibly is to describe the room and its contents, and then separately give mapping instructions. It breaks the mood of the game.

Quote from: JoeNuttall;852951Ha ha - all the old TSR modules had blue maps! Not a clue why they did it as it isn't clear.

Was intended to discourage illegal sale/distribution.

Quote from: Frank Mentzer at DragonsfootWe made the maps in blue to foil photocopiers of that era. Worked fine until technology improved.

Quote from: JoeNuttall;852951Ha ha - all the old TSR modules had blue maps! Not a clue why they did it as it isn't clear.

They hired an ex-architect to draw them? Back in the 1970s blue did not photocopy well. It may have originally been an attempt to avoid loss of sales from duplication of adventure supplements by making the map illegible if photocopied.

EDIT:I see my speculation about copy protection was scooped by Chainsaw. Curse my slow typing fingers.

QuoteThat's about half the features of the room, and I couldn't draw it from that description. What about the stairs to the balcony, and the other recesses on the right and left?

I thought about starting from the north, but I couldn't quickly decide what the hell the designer meant by the scribbles up north nor where the entrance was exactly nor where it was coming from. Also it was unclear to me what was and what was not illuminated so I went with the simplest assumption of PC light sources only. As a DM/GM I deal with illumination by indicating in on the map so I don't have to flip between map and description to figure that out. I was more concerned with giving a sense of how one might describe the room quickly and sufficiently for a player to sketch an incomplete map.

QuoteFrom the entrance you thought they came in by they can see the left one but not the right one. (It's lit by a chandelier as per my description). And you've got to fit in the most important features, the prisoners and the torturers ;-)

I couldn't tell from your description where those were.

QuoteDescribing the room in this style would be possible but it's an intellectual exercise. The only way to do it sensibly is to describe the room and its contents, and then separately give mapping instructions. It breaks the mood of the game.

I agree it is an intellectual exercise. One that was a significant part of OD&D play.

I found it actually worked best to describe the room dimensions first and then describe the contents. So they are (sort of separate) but you start with the map. Without first having a sense of the overall shape of the room (as far as they can discern it by light sources) describing the contents of the room just creates a jumbled list with no sense of place and tends to confuse all the players as each one focuses on some item (often not the most visible or important items) from the list.

I agree that mapping is it's own thing that requires it's own share of time, talk, and attention. I'm really not sure what mood you feel is being broken. Obviously you should deal with maps in a way that works for you and your group. Personally, back in the day, the gradual appearance of the shape of the room while mapping set it's own mood which was evocative of dark spaces not easily scanned and seemed very in keeping with exploring a strange, dark, and dangerous place. And the ambiguity or vagueness of some descriptions was evocative of the fact that these are people viewing stuff in the dark and in a hurry, not machines with radar, sonar, and infrared laser detection devices that allow an exact mapping of the space.

But if you didn't feel that, well you didn't feel that. And if that wasn't fun for you, well, it wasn't fun for you. Worked for us though.

QuoteThat's about half the features of the room, and I couldn't draw it from that description.

Yes, I intentionally did not include all the features, both based on lighting assumptions on my part as well as wanting to give only partial information initially and allow the players to tell me what they do, where they look, so they guide what other information they get next.

As far as ability to map based on descriptions, I have seen players and had players draw maps from such descriptions. I certainly used to do so. Not all players can. Some don't have the patience or just don't care to and some lack or have never practiced the skill. I was very good at it 40 years ago, but it's not a technique that I use much now, nor do I have players who care to map like this very often. I did use this technique during one adventure where a couple of PCs went down some tunnels that ran under a Paris cemetery.  The mapper seemed to follow the directions without obvious difficulty, though the tunnels, crypt entrances, and basements were simpler to describe, though not nearly as linear and right angle based as that map.

The most difficult maps in the old days were the irregular caverns that did not use right angles at all. Those often ended up as an oval blobbish shape of roughly the proper length and width but with little to no accuracy as to the actual edges. And that worked fine as well. If players wanted to pace out, use balls of string, and take measurements to accurately map an irregular cavern, they could. Though that would take a lot of time and generate a few rolls on the wandering monster table, so lots of people didn't take the time.

From the north:
You enter the door to the south. In front of you is a 15’x20’ room. The 20’ is east-west. The north, west, and east sides are raised x’ with a central stair going down to the south in the middle of the room. Beyond that you can see a rectangular room that looks sort of like an asymmetrical church. Initially the room is as wide as the large alcove you in front of you, but it widens to the east and, after the first 10’ it widens to the west as well.
Extending south and aligned with the east and west edges of your alcove are two rows of pillars with at least one additional pillar over in the east extension.
NOTE: From the door or the north landing, the PCs don’t have an angle of sight that lets them see all of the east extension nor all of the west extension, nor can they see past the short wall that goes 10’ south from the southern end of the west landing. Unless the light is very bright, the south end of the chamber is shadowed and probably not clearly view-able.

I admit this chamber was designed to be difficult to describe quickly. But having looked at the map, its frankly not too easy to understand what the it is supposed to look like with the map. Though to be fair, some of that is my unfamiliarity with the conventions of this map.

Quote from: Bren;852994They hired an ex-architect to draw them? Back in the 1970s blue did not photocopy well. It may have originally been an attempt to avoid loss of sales from duplication of adventure supplements by making the map illegible if photocopied.

EDIT:I see my speculation about copy protection was scooped by Chainsaw. Curse my slow typing fingers.

Just missed it!

Quote from: Bren;852994I found it actually worked best to describe the room dimensions first and then describe the contents. So they are (sort of separate) but you start with the map. Without first having a sense of the overall shape of the room (as far as they can discern it by light sources) describing the contents of the room just creates a jumbled list with no sense of place and tends to confuse all the players as each one focuses on some item (often not the most visible or important items) from the list.

I give a description of both together as per my example, which doesn't cause a problem as they're not trying to draw a map from it.

Quote from: Bren;852994I'm really not sure what mood you feel is being broken. Obviously you should deal with maps in a way that works for you and your group.

If you describe the precise dimensions of a room first then I feel that's putting the unimportant details first, and gives an impression that whenever characters see an alcove they see a "10x20 alcove".
But I'm always willing to consider other approaches. There is no "one true way" and without trying new ideas there'd never be innovation, even if the new idea is to revisit the old ways.

Quote from: Bren;852994Personally, back in the day, the gradual appearance of the shape of the room while mapping set it's own mood which was evocative of dark spaces not easily scanned and seemed very in keeping with exploring a strange, dark, and dangerous place. And the ambiguity or vagueness of some descriptions was evocative of the fact that these are people viewing stuff in the dark and in a hurry, not machines with radar, sonar, and infrared laser detection devices that allow an exact mapping of the space.

Sketching the map for them allows exactly the same thing, especially the ability to show only the bits of the room that the players can see. Whatever method anyone uses I strongly recommend that they try and capture exactly that feeling!

Quote from: Bren;852994As far as ability to map based on descriptions, I have seen players and had players draw maps from such descriptions. I certainly used to do so. Not all players can. Some don't have the patience or just don't care to and some lack or have never practiced the skill. I was very good at it 40 years ago, but it's not a technique that I use much now, nor do I have players who care to map like this very often. I did use this technique during one adventure where a couple of PCs went down some tunnels that ran under a Paris cemetery.  The mapper seemed to follow the directions without obvious difficulty, though the tunnels, crypt entrances, and basements were simpler to describe, though not nearly as linear and right angle based as that map.

I just meant that I'd have had difficulty drawing this particular room from your description, just as my players had difficulty when I described it to them.

Quote from: Bren;852994The most difficult maps in the old days were the irregular caverns that did not use right angles at all. Those often ended up as an oval blobbish shape of roughly the proper length and width but with little to no accuracy as to the actual edges. And that worked fine as well. If players wanted to pace out, use balls of string, and take measurements to accurately map an irregular cavern, they could. Though that would take a lot of time and generate a few rolls on the wandering monster table, so lots of people didn't take the time.

When I sketch the map I only draw what they can see, which even with good lighting means there are bits of irregular chambers where the map is blank. It's funny how these missing bits on the map draw them and they are compelled to look round these corners.

Quote from: Bren;852994I admit this chamber was designed to be difficult to describe quickly.

I admit I chose it because it was the straw that broke the camel's back for me, but I'd never considered that it might have been an awkward shape just for the sake of being awkward!

Quote from: Bren;852994But having looked at the map, its frankly not too easy to understand what the it is supposed to look like with the map. Though to be fair, some of that is my unfamiliarity with the conventions of this map.

You're correct that another major point to be gleaned from this map is that maps should be one hell of a lot clearer than this!

Quote from: JoeNuttall;853002I give a description of both together as per my example, which doesn't cause a problem as they're not trying to draw a map from it.

Without a map to look at, the description was confusing to me. Some of this may also come down to preferences regarding visual and audio learning. While I can do both, I prefer visual. So starting with a map no matter who sketches it works best for me.

QuoteIf you describe the precise dimensions of a room first then I feel that's putting the unimportant details first, and gives an impression that whenever characters see an alcove they see a "10x20 alcove".

OK. I can see that.

Using actual measures is a compromise. Obviously the characters don't see with that sort of measured detail, but using vague non-measured terms adds a translation step and turns it into a guessing game about what big, small, large, tiny, vast, cramped, or cavernous mean and since those words probably generate different pictures for each person at the table it just adds confusion to the players about something that would not be confusing to their characters. One could use phrases like "10 paces" or "a long bow-shot" but while these would likely be meaningful to the characters they are less intuitive to the players since they may require a translation step. And of course the hobbit, dwarf, elf, and tall human probably have different length paces and their bows probably have different ranges as well.

QuoteBut I'm always willing to consider other approaches. There is no "one true way" and without trying new ideas there'd never be innovation, even if the new idea is to revisit the old ways.

Cool. I look at them as different tools. For different games and groups different tools will work better to get an enjoyable experience.

QuoteSketching the map for them allows exactly the same thing, especially the ability to show only the bits of the room that the players can see. Whatever method anyone uses I strongly recommend that they try and capture exactly that feeling!

I've used this as well. I prefer it for games where dungeon crawling isn't desired or supposed to be a focus of play.

Currently I'm playing over video chat with players remote and with players with me in person and I haven't found or added a way to easily sketch stuff that everyone can see. I did use a version of your method for exploring the lair of a wolf pack led by a loup garou. The blank spots did attract their attention just as you describe. I used a map of an actual cave which I talk about on my blog.

QuoteI just meant that I'd have had difficulty drawing this particular room from your description, just as my players had difficulty when I described it to them.

It's a bitch of a room alright. It's easier if there is no light but the party's lanterns and torches so you can go slow and reveal only a little at a time or if the whole thing is lit so that you can show them (via a sketch as you suggest) everything in line of sight.

• For something requiring a lot of detail (like a stronghold where the PCs are going to be regulars), I use the large graph pads (1-inch squares).


• For interiors being explored for the first time, I use the trusty battlemat with dry erase markers and fill in areas as the PCs discover them.


• For outdoor encounters at long range, I use either scratch pads or a coach's dry erase board.


• I do long for the day when they create a black or dark-colored battlemat with white or light-colored markers.

I view campaigns verbal only description as a hindrance. It makes it hard for people to follow what going on in noisy situation or if they are hard of hearing (as I am). It is also an artificial challenge that has little to do with what the players would be seeing or doing if they were their as their character. It slow down the game when the description needs to be repeated.

I get some like it as a style and like the whole theater of the mind. Just like there are excellent verbal storytellers, I played with referees that do verbal only very well.

What I would recommend most times is to keep a whiteboard and markers handle. Just draw the shape of the room, draw dots or letters to highlight anything of special interest, and keep it in general view. Do your verbal description as you draw it. With practice it will be slightly longer than verbal only but you will more than make up for it with the lack of confusion as the encounter plays out.

In my opinion incorporating the whiteboard overcomes the limitations of verbal only without having to resort to miniatures, tiles, and dwarven forge that some don't like. You can still persevere the players having to map by wiping the board after a room or area.

Also it still doesn't change the fact that a campaign is always going to be a mix of presentations. Even if you go the full dwarven forge route there are going to be times where verbal only is more than sufficient, times when all you need a whiteboard sketch, and of course times when you bust out the minis and the dwarven forge.

My preferred mode is

• Use tiles for Wilderness encounters
• Use Dwarven Forge for interiors, dungeons, and caves
• Layout out a huge city map that is laminated and use dry erase to highlight as the players move for urban adventures.

The trick is to have all the props organized in a semi-circle behind me. I learned to do the building on the fly as I do the verbal description. It is slower but not so slow that it bogs down the game. And the players really enjoy the spectacle.

The main problem I have is that don't game much at my house these days so I am having tote stuff around and fitting it into the available space. At home I have a set of shelves that makes this way easier. Thankfully things are changing to where I will be gaming at home more.

I got another system for when I game on-line with Roll20 and Fantasy Ground. It is similar to above but I have a lot more pre-built that I can call up when I need it.

Some links to pictures of a dungeon layout I created during a  gaming session

How it looks starting out.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Gs1JGTtGchE/VhGrOLomMGI/AAAAAAAAMTc/SeBjHdRPou8/w708-h531-no/20151003_133316.jpg

A pair of rooms.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EVmsq_r2JvY/VhGrOL70PnI/AAAAAAAAMTc/aebehicHquU/w708-h531-no/20151003_143038.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tLO8WMNHKPE/VhGrOOypJcI/AAAAAAAAMTc/Kp5FDf7GPps/w708-h531-no/20151003_140752.jpg

The explored Dungeon

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JSbfn9p4guE/VhGrOGcQVXI/AAAAAAAAMTc/1bt23mUgDKk/w708-h531-no/20151003_171916.jpg

I run Savage Worlds a lot and SW is kind of like a hybrid of an RPG and a miniatures wargame so I use maps a lot.  Mainly I've been using them with just a rough sketch of the place we're gaming in, but now that I'm really getting into Infinity, that terrain can pull double duty with Interface Zero.

SW is greatly enhanced by the use of miniatures wargame terrain.

For area maps:
If the group acquires an area map, I'll print them one though. This tends to be more important in Ted's games like 50 Fathoms and Deadlands or my Shaintar game that have larger areas. I don't think its going to be necessary for Necessary Evil though because the area, Star City, is just an 8 point star (with names like Northpoint and Southpoint making it even easier to navigate).

For combat maps:
I print out our DramaScape maps (as well as any other maps I own from other companies like Grey Matter Games) on card stock, take the edges off, then I mount them on foam core from the Dollar General (black). The print on demand maps on poster or cardstock by DramaScape are better though because they don't have as much pesky human error (i.e. splicing by me) on the edging. Simon also has had our maps printed on vinyl poster which is sublime because of how easy they are to carry and roll out.