Quote from: NathanIW;852838Probably because you want 'old school' to be a historical category rather than describing an approach, set of expectations or a community in operation today?

What I "want"? As opposed to what various outspoken postmodern grognards on Internet message boards want?

Some people who play old school games focus on game mechanics and relative balance, and some don't. "Old school" isn't some monolithic gaming hivemind.

Quote from: NathanIWWhen it comes to RPGs and the term 'old school' ignoring OD&D is nonsensical.  The approach that people are talking about when they use the term is one particular approach to OD&D.  If your looking for it to be a historical category this might frustrate you.  It will make no sense to you that a different game from the 1970s doesn't count.  Or even a different approach to OD&D for that matter.  As with all revival and reconstruction it isn't about historical categorization but about what people are doing with it today.

Beyond its formation of the D&D hobby and industry, OD&D is largely culturally irrelevant. It's never had the popularity or market share of Basic D&D, AD&D, or 3e.

And what makes a game largely relevant, is having large numbers of people playing it. That has always been the way of things.

Quote from: NathanIWHint: it's not a term meant to describe all play that went on in the 70s as a historical category but about what one approach from that period and what people are doing with it (and how they are extending it) today.

I used to think that any definition of old school that excludes games or approaches from the 70s was useless.  Then I realized it's not about doing history, but about playing and making games today.

Also, there's nothing 'postmodern' about people who attempt to claim that this one approach was more universal than it was.  That's just an error and has nothing to do with the philosophy of the person making the claim.

Surely you realize that's only a small subset of what "old school" gaming entails. One approach? That's it? How limited.

Again, old school isn't some monolithic hivemind.....even if the grogs seem hellbent on trying to focus their "onetruewayism" on old school games, and condemn other ways of playing these games as "badwrongfun".

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;852836"Old School" has become a term of art, not a historical designation. I think "Classic Gygaxian" would be more fitting, but I'll use "Old School" for the sake of discussion and for the same reason folk of older times spoke of  'the Fair Folk' or 'the Kindly Ones'.

+1

Modern "Old School" bears little resemblance to how I played BiTD (84-85 for me), it bears little resemblance to how most legacy groups who never stopped playing still play, and it bears little resemblance to the module-centric play of the pre-OSR AD&D community (eg on Dragonsfoot) for whom the model is GDQ and A1-4 far more than Wilderlands. But modern "Old School" is a distinct and - for me - enjoyable play style.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;852846What I "want"? As opposed to what various outspoken postmodern grognards on Internet message boards want?

Some people who play old school games focus on game mechanics and relative balance, and some don't. "Old school" isn't some monolithic gaming hivemind.



Beyond its formation of the D&D hobby and industry, OD&D is largely culturally irrelevant. It's never had the popularity or market share of Basic D&D, AD&D, or 3e.

And what makes a game largely relevant, is having large numbers of people playing it. That has always been the way of things.



Surely you realize that's only a small subset of what "old school" gaming entails. One approach? That's it? How limited.

Again, old school isn't some monolithic hivemind.....even if the grogs seem hellbent on trying to focus their "onetruewayism" on old school games, and condemn other ways of playing these games as "badwrongfun".

I see this all the time - that there are some group of grognards that insist that "old school" is a term made relevant because everybody played that way!

Link please?  I flat out don't believe this exists.  I see this accusation all the time, but never actually run across this in the wild.  If it is such a common belief it shouldn't be difficult to prove that this is espoused by big names in the OS scene.

I mean, sure, I'm guessing that there somewhere someplace is a crank case who says that, but not that it is believed as a thing by anyone considered influential.  

I think this is a non-reason that is promulgated far and wide by people who are stung that a desirable term like "old-school" has been associated with a style of play that they happen not to enjoy, and that's about it.

As for the idea that OD&D isn't really relevant because it didn't sell as much as later editions?  

I suppose that BB King isn't worth discussing in music, because he never sold like Justin Beiber.  And sales = relevance :rotfl:

Quote from: EOTB;852872I see this all the time - that there are some group of grognards that insist that "old school" is a term made relevant because everybody played that way!

Link please?  I flat out don't believe this exists.

I can tell you, it's not how everyone played, cuz I didn't.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;852846What I "want"? As opposed to what various outspoken postmodern grognards on Internet message boards want?

Your main complaint seems to be that some people on the internet are trying to falsely portray a single approach to OD&D as being far more prevalent (or even universal) in the 70s than it actually was.  And for some reason you think this is connected with being "postmodern" which makes zero sense at all as there's nothing stopping a died-in-the-wool Cartesian from making that error.

QuoteSome people who play old school games focus on game mechanics and relative balance, and some don't. "Old school" isn't some monolithic gaming hivemind.

No, but it is more like a genre.  A body of expectations.  You can have some variance, but if you look at this thread you'll find a remarkable sense of clarity about what the term means when it is used in regards to RPGs.  The only people who seem to have an issue are those who mistakenly think it's a historical category.

QuoteBeyond its formation of the D&D hobby and industry, OD&D is largely culturally irrelevant. It's never had the popularity or market share of Basic D&D, AD&D, or 3e.

So now imagine there was a group of people who didn't like the majority approach of the late 90s, early 00s on and wanted to create a community of like minded individuals who wanted to preserve, reconstruct and extend an approach.  They got together on the internet, on message boards, social media, blogs etc., and got busy playing, writing and publishing material.  And their favoured approach was heavily impacted by the free wheeling take on OD&D.

These people started using terms like Old School and the acronym OSR.  You may not like that they functionally coopted a term that you would have rather been used as a historical category, but language doesn't work based on our likes, but on usage.  And when it comes to RPGs, old school describes an approach to play that is important to people now and is not a historical category about how other people played back then.  If you come across someone who tries to claim that a single approach was prevalent in the early days of the hobby, they're just factually wrong.  'Old School' in regards to RPGs is about reconstructing (or preserving) an approach to play that was likely in the minority during the 70s and definitely in the minority when 3rd edition D&D came out.  It's about what people have been doing for the last 15 years or so far, far more than how people played games in the 70s.

QuoteSurely you realize that's only a small subset of what "old school" gaming entails. One approach? That's it? How limited.

It being limited is a strength, not a weakness.  If the term just 'meant every game and approach from the 70s and early 80s' it would tell you nothing about a given work, blog or thread.  By being narrow you tell everyone what to expect.  It actually communicates something when you see the word old school in a blog title or an OSR logo on something.

QuoteAgain, old school isn't some monolithic hivemind.....even if the grogs seem hellbent on trying to focus their "onetruewayism" on old school games, and condemn other ways of playing these games as "badwrongfun".

Except they don't.  Usually people are just saying that just because an approach is old doesn't mean it's automatically worse than a more current game.  If they comment on a given game they don't play at all.  Can you provide me an example of what you are talking about?  I could see it happening every now and again by someone who is looking for a fight, but most OSR types are so used to being a tiny minority in the hobby since back during the d20 boom that they won't bother.

Or does someone simply advocating for the strengths of their approach mean that you consider them to be condemning the approach of others?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;852884I can tell you, it's not how everyone played, cuz I didn't.

I'm asking for a link to this supposed group of influential OSR Grognards that proclaim everyone back then gamed in a similar fashion to what is now being promoted.

How you gamed or didn't game doesn't really come into the picture...we all know that not everyone gamed that way.  

Which is why I don't believe anyone is saying otherwise.  It's a rather stupid straw man.

Quote from: rawma;852351I meant, where did you see the opposite, where PCs went up a level in the middle of a dungeon? It seems it would also characterize non-old-school, outside of computer/video games, so hardly worth listing as characterizing old school.

Very common, seen it a lot in many games, D&D and others.
Never liked it myself and used to not allow it.
But more relaxed now..

Neither Dave nor Gary handed out XP until the PCs were safe at home, so leveling up mid adventure is definitely NOT old school.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853136Neither Dave nor Gary handed out XP until the PCs were safe at home, so leveling up mid adventure is definitely NOT old school.

Just because Dave and Gary didn't game a certain way, doesn't mean it's not "old school".

It just means that the guys who created D&D ran the game in their own personal way.

But never presume to think that you know how all or most old school games have been run or are run.

Enough of this grognardian hivemind shit.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;853144Just because Dave and Gary didn't game a certain way, doesn't mean it's not "old school".

It just means that the guys who created D&D ran the game in their own personal way.

But never presume to think that you know how all or most old school games have been run or are run.

Enough of this grognardian hivemind shit.

But that's the crux of the OSR.  It assumes that everyone played the same way in the 'good old days'.  I'm anecdotal proof that we didn't.  Unless of course, people assume that AD&D isn't 'old school' enough, at which one has to ask, what IS old school.

And THAT puts us back at square one of this entire mess of a thread.  (But at least it's an easy mess to deal with.)

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;853144But never presume to think that you know how all or most old school games have been run or are run.

Sorry, but if a game, even during the 70s wasn't like the approach Gronan's is describing then it isn't Old School as the term has come to be used.  Is it fair?  No.  But that's because it's about the promotion of one particular approach.  Gronan's doesn't need to know what every game that was run in the 70s was like in order to know what old school is.

I'm sure by late 1974 people were running OD&D in a way that would not be described today as old school.  Why?  Because the term isn't about categorizing history but about what people are doing with a particular approach today.

QuoteEnough of this grognardian hivemind shit

Why?  Does having your game or approach excluded by big meany heads on the internet hurt your feelings?

It's actually not a big deal that some meanies on the internet said your elf game of choice isn't Old School.  Arguing that the definition of old school when it comes to RPGs should be changed to accommodate your preferences is just a waste of energy.  And if we did all suddenly start using old school to mean every possible approach present in the 70s and 80s we'd lose the utility of clarity that the term currently has by being so focused.

It is a very good thing that the term actually means something specific.  That when you read a blog post describing a game as old school you know exactly what they mean.  That when you see an OSR logo on a blog that you'll immediately know the kind of content you might find there.

I would never want to trade that utility in just to protect the feelings of some people who can't seem to get past this idea that if it's from the 70s or 80s, then it must be old school.  That's just not what the term has come to mean when it comes to RPGs.

My favorite RPG from the 70s (RuneQuest) isn't what people are usually talking about when they say Old School.  And that's totally fine.  When people do talk about RQ add old school, they're usually going to either talk about how the skill system represents a departure from old school play or how to mitigate its impact in order to run the game in a more old school approach.  You'll see people recommend that only the referee can call for skill rolls and other similar techniques needed to run RQ in a more old school way.  If 'old school' was just some generic term for games from the first ten years of the hobby then the people wouldn't have anything to go on in terms of knowing what to recommend.

Old school is what ever I was playing before half my current players were born.

I actually do think it is useful the "old school" as in OSR has come to have a certain connotation. Even if it is not true that all gamers played that way back in the day. It helps to know what a game that is advertised as "old school" may be like.

We often played that Experience Points handed out on the spot but equally often at the end of the session. Leveling up might happen when you crossed the exp threshold, or it might require going into town and training. It all depended on the whims of the DM. So even within our group back in the '70s and early '80s there was no one way of playing.

This reminds me hilariously of the time some clown insisted Gary Gygax was the Egg of Coot even after being shown several places where Dave Arneson said in writing that was not the case.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;853173But that's the crux of the OSR.  It assumes that everyone played the same way in the 'good old days'.

No, it assumes that one particular approach among many is what they are interested in talking about.

QuoteI'm anecdotal proof that we didn't.  Unless of course, people assume that AD&D isn't 'old school' enough, at which one has to ask, what IS old school.

Old school is not a historical category.  It's a set of common elements and expectations for an approach to RPGs that people have preserved, reconstructed and extended because they are interested in playing, writing about or discussing that approach in the hear and now.  

Is AD&D "old school enough"?  I think the answer is probably, but I'm sure many people play it with an approach that is not old school.  I know I had great fun in a long AD&D game that wasn't old school at all.  I've also played in games of AD&D that were incredibly old school.  If some one ever says it was not old school enough, I would assume they are talking about a subset of possible AD&D play.  Perhaps even the default given the marketing of AD&D as an act of standardizing the rules for commercial reasons.  But that's more about how TSR was selling a product than the variety of ways it was played.

One thing I will say for sure is that the 1970s publication date of some AD&D books does not automatically qualify it or any game as old school.

QuoteAnd THAT puts us back at square one of this entire mess of a thread.  (But at least it's an easy mess to deal with.)

This thread hasn't been a mess at all.  It been a big list of the elements people include when they are talking about old school in terms of RPGs.  There's been some debate about the priority of different elements but people have largely been on the same page.

And then you have those who think it's about all approaches to all games from the 70s or 80s who are all confused or offended that a group would dare use a term that excludes their approach.

Quote from: NathanIW;853208Sorry, but if a game, even during the 70s wasn't like the approach Gronan's is describing then it isn't Old School as the term has come to be used.  Is it fair?  No.  But that's because it's about the promotion of one particular approach.  Gronan's doesn't need to know what every game that was run in the 70s was like in order to know what old school is.

Right; promotion.

It's social marketing by modern day grognards, acting as a misrepresentation of gaming reality to suit the gaming preferences of these very same grogs. But it's epic bullshit, and not to be taken at face value.

I remember the times I would receive PMs on sites like Dragonsfoot from other members who were into old school rpgs, but they hated dealing with the immature grognardian bullshit, hated dealing with narrow-minded suffocating zealotry masquerading as rpg authority. These grogs were usually (but not always) "Gygaxians". And Heaven help you if you define "old school" in a different way or run an old school game in a way that doesn't fit the narrow confines of the "gaming Al-Qaeda". :rolleyes:

Quote from: NathanIWI'm sure by late 1974 people were running OD&D in a way that would not be described today as old school.  Why?  Because the term isn't about categorizing history but about what people are doing with a particular approach today.

Which people? Which approach? Not all players and DMs of old school games agree with the loudest voices on sites like Dragonsfoot or Knights & Knaves Alehouse. Not everyone is so dogmatic.

Quote from: NathanIWWhy?  Does having your game or approach excluded by big meany heads on the internet hurt your feelings?

If you're gonna be a passive-aggressive little cocksmock, then you should just fuck right off to RPGnet. They love passive-aggressiveness there.

Quote from: NathanIWIt's actually not a big deal that some meanies on the internet said your elf game of choice isn't Old School.  Arguing that the definition of old school when it comes to RPGs should be changed to accommodate your preferences is just a waste of energy.  And if we did all suddenly start using old school to mean every possible approach present in the 70s and 80s we'd lose the utility of clarity that the term currently has by being so focused.

Misleading potential gamers about old school games is bad. When modern day grogs try to change the definition of old school games to accommodate their preferences, that's bad.

Quote from: NathanIWIt is a very good thing that the term actually means something specific.  That when you read a blog post describing a game as old school you know exactly what they mean.  That when you see an OSR logo on a blog that you'll immediately know the kind of content you might find there.

I would never want to trade that utility in just to protect the feelings of some people who can't seem to get past this idea that if it's from the 70s or 80s, then it must be old school.  That's just not what the term has come to mean when it comes to RPGs.

It's not about my feelings, you passive-aggressive little twat. It's about grogs who try to co-opt language, solely in order to accommodate their own personal preferences in rpgs.

That's bad for gaming. :pundit:

Quote from: NathanIWMy favorite RPG from the 70s (RuneQuest) isn't what people are usually talking about when they say Old School.  And that's totally fine.  When people do talk about RQ add old school, they're usually going to either talk about how the skill system represents a departure from old school play or how to mitigate its impact in order to run the game in a more old school approach.  You'll see people recommend that only the referee can call for skill rolls and other similar techniques needed to run RQ in a more old school way.  If 'old school' was just some generic term for games from the first ten years of the hobby then the people wouldn't have anything to go on in terms of knowing what to recommend.

RuneQuest is unambiguously "old school".

It was published in the 1970's, and is one of the earlier arrivals in the rpg hobby. This game is the poster child for old school. It's not my fault when (usually Gygaxian) grognards become epically butthurt when someone mentions that non-D&D roleplaying games from the mid-1970's to early 1990's could be legitimately old school.

RIFTS is old school. RuneQuest is old school. Traveller is old school. OD&D and AD&D are old school. The list goes on. And yes, some modern games that try to duplicate/clone these rpgs are old school as well.

Just please stop talking like you possess the monopoly on truth in regards to "old school play". You don't, so just cut it out.