Another thought.

We need to discard the phrase "rulings, not rules."  It's not only not accurate, it has been the cause of a lot of pointless arguing in various places.

I want to substitute "Free, Not Rigid, Kriegspiel."  Because Braunstein, Blackmoor, and Greyhawk all come FIRMLY out of the "Free Kriegspiel" tradition, where the referee's word is ultimate law, and any charts, tables, notes, or other things are to support the referee, not be the authority.  There ARE rules; they are simply DIFFERENT rules.  So "Rulings Not Rules" really isn't an accurate summary.

Besides, think of the looks on the faces of those who want to argue against it when you declare "Free Kriegspiel."  It'll be fun!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsspiel_%28wargame%29#.22Free.22_Kriegsspiel

And I hereby declare the founding of the Free Kriegspiel Renaissance, devoted to bringing back the principles of Free Kriegspiel to RPGs.  FKR forever!

And yes, "FKR" is indeed pronouned "Fucker."

In the immortal words of Vaugn Bode, "HOOHAH, Cheech, you fuker!"

FKR . Lol

I've always thought the only real difference between a rule and a ruling is one got written down in advance, so I'm all for ditching Finch's "rulings, not rules" for an Free Kriegspiel reference.  It's just more accurate.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;849042Does this help any?

It helps a lot, really! Thanks.

One (rather long) question, if you will:

I understand the bit that you said characters are special - after all, they are the protagonists - what I mean is that they don't start with any special traits to differentiate themselves from, say, other 1st level fighters.

No protection against being killed by a goblin because they rolled bad, for example.

Some modern games say, for example, that heroes have special rules that don't apply to NPCs, or that a fighter is the only Fighter (with a capitol F), while the other are mere warriors, or that charachters should start with an unique trait ("I am the only half elf half dwarf in the world"), for example.

Would it be fair to say that characters started with few "special" bits (i.e., "just another 1st-level fighter") , and acquire importance during play? Or is that a misconception?

EDIT: also, could you elaborate on 7? when you say "we usually were spectators on the fringe of the meta-game", do you mean PCs actions didn't really influence the setting or "story"? Or do you mean that the GM created a story that stayed mostly on the background, while the story of the actual PCs wasn't predetermined?

All first level fighters are created equal within the limits of 3d6 in order 6 times.  They acquire distinction through play.

This was a feature, not a bug.

Also, the advantages of a high Strength were small... an XP bonus.  Stats were intended to be guidance, not restrictions, in keeping with the "Free Kriegspiel" spirit.

A character with everything between 9 and 12 is perfectly viable as any class in Original D&D.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;849064I want to substitute "Free, Not Rigid, Kriegspiel."  Because Braunstein, Blackmoor, and Greyhawk all come FIRMLY out of the "Free Kriegspiel" tradition, where the referee's word is ultimate law, and any charts, tables, notes, or other things are to support the referee, not be the authority.  There ARE rules; they are simply DIFFERENT rules.  So "Rulings Not Rules" really isn't an accurate summary.

That's a good point, but the average RPG player I talk to today would likely have no idea what "Kriegspiel" was, let alone that there were rigid/strict and free variants and why the free variant was much more popular with the nineteenth century German officers. "rulings not rules" is a less accurate description that "Free Kriegspiel" but at least it communicates something to today's players.

QuoteAnd I hereby declare the founding of the Free Kriegspiel Renaissance, devoted to bringing back the principles of Free Kriegspiel to RPGs.  FKR forever!

And yes, "FKR" is indeed pronouned "Fucker."

In the immortal words of Vaugn Bode, "HOOHAH, Cheech, you fuker!"

LOL. However, I can't argue with this.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;849077All first level fighters are created equal within the limits of 3d6 in order 6 times.  They acquire distinction through play.

This was a feature, not a bug.

That was my impression, and something I appreciate.

Quote from: Eric Diaz;849076It helps a lot, really! Thanks.

One (rather long) question, if you will:

I understand the bit that you said characters are special - after all, they are the protagonists - what I mean is that they don't start with any special traits to differentiate themselves from, say, other 1st level fighters.

No protection against being killed by a goblin because they rolled bad, for example.

Some modern games say, for example, that heroes have special rules that don't apply to NPCs, or that a fighter is the only Fighter (with a capitol F), while the other are mere warriors, or that charachters should start with an unique trait ("I am the only half elf half dwarf in the world"), for example.

Would it be fair to say that characters started with few "special" bits (i.e., "just another 1st-level fighter") , and acquire importance during play? Or is that a misconception?

EDIT: also, could you elaborate on 7? when you say "we usually were spectators on the fringe of the meta-game", do you mean PCs actions didn't really influence the setting or "story"? Or do you mean that the GM created a story that stayed mostly on the background, while the story of the actual PCs wasn't predetermined?

Whew! That's a relief - I always worry that I'm confusing the issue!

Ah! Let me see if I can answer that for you, at least in Phil's campaign.

No, first level PCs have nothing special going for them. No special rules, no nothing; just the player's wits and skill in the world setting. The 'older players' tended to cover a lot for the new people, at least until they could hold their own, but that was our 'cooperative play' style. Nope, you have it right; they acquired their 'specialness' through play.

Re the meta-game: This was always running in the background of our adventures. Phil's Tekumel cooked along very nicely without our hands on the controls, and it served as the background for our adventures. We could indeed change the setting, as Tim Cox did in 1974 when he zapped Princess Ma'in with an Eye that changed her alignment; all hell broke loose, as he was charged with Imperial treason (amongst other things) and eventually hunted down and killed by the equivalent of bounty hunters. Likewise, we could win or lose battles and such, and it would affect the history of the campaign. It would not affect the timeline, though, as Phil has this meta-plot going in the deep background and we generally didn't have an effect on that.

However, there were times when we were the right people in the right place at the right time; like the time in Khirgar when somebody tried to assassinate the newly revealed Prince Mirusiya:


   The ceremonies were long, tedious, and stifling. It seemed that every Temple, clan, legion, and government office had to have their part in the arcane rituals that attended a newly-revealed Prince; all had frantically dusted off musty books of protocols and ceremonies that hadn't ever been used in the memory of the men and women who tried to puzzle out just what they and their peers were supposed to do in a case like this. Precedent ruled the day, and the city was thrown into a complete uproar; if Baron Áld had chosen this day to attack Khirgár with his green-armored troops, he and they would have never been seen again. Not defeated by the armed might of the massed Legions of the Petal Throne, but simply lost in the enormous crowds that thronged every open space and street in the city.

   The most important of the dignitaries and officials ended up where it had all begun two days previously, in the great hall of the Governor's palace. The trumpeting  and drumming had once again deafened everyone, but this time in increasing waves of sound that had a physical impact. The new Prince of the Seal Imperium stood in new robes, all a-glitter with the symbols and glyphs of his new rank and station. His companions of his recent adventures, by his personal request, stood near him as he received the accolades of the representatives of the military, the Temples, and the clans.

   Chirine was convinced that he'd had sweated right through his new finery; his Temple had been scandalized that he'd been seen with the Prince in his old clothes and armor, and all new sets of each had been provided to him at the Prince's express command. So, he stood there in his new ceremonial armor and endured, as had the rest of them.

   There was a sudden break in the ceremonies; down by the entrance of the hall, a Priest of the Temple of Thúmis had suddenly stepped out of the crowd and into the pathway that the palace guards had been keeping clear for the high nobles to use as they approached the Prince. The guards moved to herd him back into the crowd, but then fell back in panic as one of their number froze and crumbled to dust; before the priest, a spectral grey hand seemed to float in the air!

   Everyone froze in shock; the spell known as The Grey Hand was supposedly known to only a few specialized sorcerers of the Temple of Grugánu. It was also known as one of the very few ways to kill someone by sorcery that would render the victim beyond the spells and sorcery that the very rich and powerful used to cheat Death; if this was an assassination attempt, it was chosen and planned very well indeed.

   The crowd around Chirine ebbed away from where he stood in their panic;  he racked his brain to recall if he knew any sorcery that would be of use, but couldn't think of any. He looked to his right, and saw that the Prince still stood in his place. He knew what the Prince was thinking; neither a Vríddi or a Tlakotáni worthy of name and clan would run from danger, even a danger so absolute as this one. He made a quick decision as the would-be assassin shouted "Death to the false Prince!!!"

   "I think not," he said in his Chákan accented Tsolyáni, and moved into the center of the hall until he stood between the assassin and the Prince. The rest of the guards had fallen back, leaving only the Chákan between the Prince and oblivion.

   The assassin snarled, and gestured; his Grey Hand closed over Chirine, and the crowd in the room shuddered as the grey haze of the spell closed over the new armor he'd received from the Prince as a reward for his services. Many of them closed their eyes, not wanting to see Chirine suffer the same fate as has the unfortunate guard but moments before.

   The soft accent came again through the hall. "You'll have to try harder then that, priest," they heard; eyes snapped open to see him still standing there in his armor. The assassin snarled again, and leapt for Chirine with a dagger he'd had concealed in his grey robes. The blunt end of Chirine's mace caught the man in the stomach and knocked him backwards; the shock of the blow dissipated the Grey Hand spell, and the enraged assassin lunged at the Chákan again. This time, Chirine's mace caught his assailant on the side of the head, and the assassin dropped writhing to the floor where he suddenly stiffened in the rigors of death.

   Chirine knelt briefly to make sure the man was dead; stood, turned away from the body, and saluted the Prince. "I'm sorry, Most Noble Lord; he's dead."

   The Prince replied, "No matter; our Omnipotent Legion will investigate him and deliver justice. Clean up this carrion, and let us continue."

   Chirine slung his mace on his belt, and returned to where he had stood, and faced the ceremonies with a satisfied look on his face.


Sorry about the wall of text; I hope it helps...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;849077All first level fighters are created equal within the limits of 3d6 in order 6 times.  They acquire distinction through play.

This was a feature, not a bug.

Also, the advantages of a high Strength were small... an XP bonus.  Stats were intended to be guidance, not restrictions, in keeping with the "Free Kriegspiel" spirit.

A character with everything between 9 and 12 is perfectly viable as any class in Original D&D.

Which is what actually makes the Fighter feel 'not special'.  Because back in the day, the only class (out of two) that had defined special features, it was assumed (very much incorrectly) that anyone could be a Fighter.  The average peasant fending you off with a stick was one such creature for a lot of players.

While Wizards were a special group, they were supposedly rare and old and long bearded because of the intense training needed to be a wizard.

Remember a lot of us did not have Mr. Gygax, Mr. Arnenson or Wesely to guide us as to what they meant, we only had the books and our pathetic and meagre imaginations and readings of the rules in front of us.  And frankly, a lot of players to this very day has very little knowledge about medieval weapons work and just how much training is necessary to be barely decent with a whole slew of personal weaponry.  As much as a wizard would need to study.  Even the Cleric would get a lot of training, but instead of studying for spells, part of their day would be weapons training, followed by readings of the Prayers needed to petition their God(s) of choice to grant them a sliver of Their Power.

And then the Thief came out, the true 'everyman' (as frankly, learning how to sneak, or climbing the rest is less trained skill, more practice and experience, outside of thieves' tools) and they had a whole slew of special abilities.  The Ranger popped up, the Paladin, Cavalier, Bard, Druid, for the longest time, the Fighter seemed to be getting the shortest end of the stick.

Gronan and Chirine, you have unique experiences, more so than any one of us here, because you got to play with the originators of the game, they could tell you what they meant!  The rest of us poor schlubs didn't and had to make do with our own or the interpretations of our friends.

(This is my recounting of my personal experience over the two Canadian provinces and the some fifty to one hundred other games I've talked and gamed with since the mid 80's.  I've known, peripherally what D&D was since about 82-83, and I experienced snippets of the game until the point I really got into it at about 1989.  Not to be treated as anything more than anecdotal.)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;849098Which is what actually makes the Fighter feel 'not special'.  Because back in the day, the only class (out of two) that had defined special features, it was assumed (very much incorrectly) that anyone could be a Fighter.  The average peasant fending you off with a stick was one such creature for a lot of players.

While Wizards were a special group, they were supposedly rare and old and long bearded because of the intense training needed to be a wizard.

Remember a lot of us did not have Mr. Gygax, Mr. Arnenson or Wesely to guide us as to what they meant, we only had the books and our pathetic and meagre imaginations and readings of the rules in front of us.  And frankly, a lot of players to this very day has very little knowledge about medieval weapons work and just how much training is necessary to be barely decent with a whole slew of personal weaponry.  As much as a wizard would need to study.  Even the Cleric would get a lot of training, but instead of studying for spells, part of their day would be weapons training, followed by readings of the Prayers needed to petition their God(s) of choice to grant them a sliver of Their Power.

And then the Thief came out, the true 'everyman' (as frankly, learning how to sneak, or climbing the rest is less trained skill, more practice and experience, outside of thieves' tools) and they had a whole slew of special abilities.  The Ranger popped up, the Paladin, Cavalier, Bard, Druid, for the longest time, the Fighter seemed to be getting the shortest end of the stick.

Gronan and Chirine, you have unique experiences, more so than any one of us here, because you got to play with the originators of the game, they could tell you what they meant!  The rest of us poor schlubs didn't and had to make do with our own or the interpretations of our friends.

(This is my recounting of my personal experience over the two Canadian provinces and the some fifty to one hundred other games I've talked and gamed with since the mid 80's.  I've known, peripherally what D&D was since about 82-83, and I experienced snippets of the game until the point I really got into it at about 1989.  Not to be treated as anything more than anecdotal.)

I understand that, which is why I try to answer everyone's questions as honestly as I can. All I can do is give you a window into the past, to a certain place and time.

I can understand the Fighter getting the short end of the stick, too. The way Phil played, they had some very real advantages in the game setting over magic-users, and the way we played as a 'team' seemed to maximize their usefulness. There were times where the one would protect the other, and the opposite way around.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;849102I understand that, which is why I try to answer everyone's questions as honestly as I can. All I can do is give you a window into the past, to a certain place and time.

I can understand the Fighter getting the short end of the stick, too. The way Phil played, they had some very real advantages in the game setting over magic-users, and the way we played as a 'team' seemed to maximize their usefulness. There were times where the one would protect the other, and the opposite way around.

I appreciate it.  It's highly informative and interesting to read and hear about these experiences.  Thank you.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;849104I appreciate it.  It's highly informative and interesting to read and hear about these experiences.  Thank you.

You're quite welcome! If there's anything in my meanderings that might be of use to you in your games, then please have it with my compliments!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;849093Sorry about the wall of text; I hope it helps...

It does! Thanks again. Awesome story BTW.

Quote from: RandallS;849080That's a good point, but the average RPG player I talk to today would likely have no idea what "Kriegspiel" was, let alone that there were rigid/strict and free variants and why the free variant was much more popular with the nineteenth century German officers. "rulings not rules" is a less accurate description that "Free Kriegspiel" but at least it communicates something to today's players.

But the problem is that it communicates something in my opinion that is very wrong; that rules either don't exist or aren't important, as opposed to "the referee's judgement IS the rules."

"When wargaming started in the 19th century the rules got so clumsy and elaborate that some folks came up with a version where the referee was the ultimate authority over all things, and any charts or tables or dice or suchlike were merely for the convenience of the referee.  They called it "Free Kriegspiel," and that's the tradition that original D&D came from; the referee's judgement, first and foremost, is what describes the reality of the game world."

78 words.  Considering that the average person speaks at 100 words per minute, not a bad "elevator pitch."

Honestly, I never bought the whole "not special" thing for any class.  What makes ANY character special is what you do with it.

Robilar, a fighter, was the first character to reach the bottom of Greyhawk Castle.  I think that makes him pretty damn special.

Special is as special does.  Ask Chirine about the Red Cataphracts.

I'd say in order for a description of Free Kriegspiel to convey the workings of a ref in the RPG context though, you need to include the fact that referees were supposed to make impartial judgments, at least by default.

Also, FK wasn't accepted without controversy IIRC.