Quote from: Justin Alexander;846339There have now been multiple people who have [strike]explained this to [/strike] used a different definition of innovation than you.

You have quoted them doing so, so we know that you have [strike]seen[/strike] disagreed with those posts.

You have, in fact, directly acknowledged how the Jenga tower is mechanically used in the exact same way in Dread as in an actual game of Jenga.

And yet, despite all that, you've [strike]somehow come full circle and are back to[/strike] continued insisting that the Jenga mechanics of a game of Dread are identical to the Jenga mechanics of a game of Jenga because they both use the same [strike]a[/strike] Jenga tower mechanic.

There's really nothing else to be said here. The most charitable interpretation is that you still disagree with Justin Alexander's view of RPG interpretation.

You are having trouble following the discussion so I fixed your quote for you. Maybe you can understand someone else's words. This sums it up well.

Quote from: RPGPundit;846684Most of what you named aren't even RPGs.  The rest are creative elaboration on existing ideas, not innovation.

Quote from: Bren;847066You are having trouble following the discussion so I fixed your quote for you.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Haffrung;844474It's remarkable how different the attitudes towards innovation are in the RPG hobby (or at least this corner of it) and the boardgaming hobby.

Boardgame rules are a much larger component of the experience than they are for RPGs... you can port any RPG setting to a different set of rules, for better or worse... but you can't play Monopoly with the rules for Risk. If I'm really happy with a particular set of RPG rules, know them well, it's going to take some doing to convince me that I NEED to try this new 'innovative' rule set.

I'm not big on novelty for novelty's sake, but Bren's apparent conclusion that therefore it's not novelty is a novelty that makes my brain hurt.

I am open to new fun mechanics (and new takes on old ideas). I don't enjoy narrative style play so innovations in those games usually don't port over to my GMing style.

I like the Icons rules in 13th Age.

I love the Funnel in DCC RPG.

Of course people would care.  You're changing their perception of their game, even if it's peripherally, or tangentially.  And by golly, they can't have that!  Have you seen some of the D&D threads on this very board?  The explosion of bile and fear is something to see if you even dare suggest the very thing!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;847830Of course people would care.  You're changing their perception of their game, even if it's peripherally, or tangentially.  And by golly, they can't have that!  Have you seen some of the D&D threads on this very board?  The explosion of bile and fear is something to see if you even dare suggest the very thing!

(shrugs)  Strange though it may seem to some, there are people who like what they like.  If you tell me that you like TexMex and want no part of South Asian cuisine, I'm not going to presume you're lying to me and drag you kicking and screaming into an Indian or Thai place.  If you tell me that you're a dyed in the wool classical music fan and anything written after the Napoleonic Era bores you to distraction, I'm unlikely to send you a Rolling Stones Greatest Hits collection for Christmas.  I'm not going out of my way to convince you that Oreo ice cream is better than your favorite flavor, or suggest that you're reacting out of "bile and fear" by not wishing to wear orange or yellow clothing when I've never seen you wear anything but ice colors.

But I know that while this syndrome -- the one where sticking to a preference in the face of someone insistent that you Have To Try This New Thing is considered hopelessly dull at best -- is common in all walks of life, it seems particularly acute in RPG circles.

I've been playing fantasy for forty years now.  I've done other genres, but I know what I prefer.  I've been GMing and playing GURPS for thirty years, and that's the system I prefer.  My willingness to go out of these comfort zones has diminished with every time someone talks me into trying a new campaign, and laboriously learning a new set of rules, only for the group to maybe make it as far as a second session ... and this has happened each and every time I've done so in the last decade.

I'm not "afraid" to try something new: that sort of chickenshit catcalling is what bullies do on elementary school playgrounds.  I just don't feel like it unless there's a strong probability that it's worth my while to do so, and I'm not going to conclude that it is for no better reason than you think it's a Phat Kewl New Thing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;846684Most of what you named aren't even RPGs

What?

Quote from: Frey;847924What?

As mind blowing as it is, there are games marketed as RPGs that are not RPGs. Not games where the focus is on the players playing characters interacting with a setting as their characters where their actions are adjudicated by a human referee.

In general what makes a game not an RPG is the use of meta-game mechanics. Mechanics that force the player to think of the game (or activity) as a player and not as his character.

It not a hard and fast line but a blurry grey continuum. In general the more meta-game mechanics a game has the less of an RPG it is. Because the focus is more on what the players are doing rather than what the characters are doing.

Also because a game sucks as an RPG doesn't mean it sucks at a game. That the not point being made. I for one view many of the game as being better off if they forge their own category and develop in their own way free of the strictures of tabletop RPGs. I could never figure out why people would think why the wargames that lies at the heart of traditional RPGs would make for a good foundation for game about creating stories.

Tabletop RPGs are excellent for creating experiences. The story part is afterwards when the participants try to describe what they experienced in a coherent and entertaining way.

As a mechanism for creating stories directly, tabletop RPGs suck monkey balls. Due to the same problem we get people try to describe travelling to a destination. Sometime there is an interesting story, but most of the time is boring as hell to listen to what happened. However for most people what they experienced was exciting as heck. Good experiences and good stories don't go hand in hand.

Innovation is a term used after the fact.  In fact, innovations are things we often take for granted because they tend to seem like natural progressions, despite being, some times literally, game changers.

In Video Games that was in the introduction of the 'Joypad' replacing the joystick.  It's something so simple, and yet, it profoundly changed that medium.

Sadly, I admit to not being that versed in RPG lore to make any sort of judgement for anything in this hobby.

Quote from: Frey;847924What?

I don't know what he intended with that statement either, as all those games are clearly RPGs to me. And Estar explanation didn't help much. It would help if the games that are supposedly not RPGs were cited, so we had concrete examples to help understand the point.

Sometimes innovation is just a matter of taking something known and repurposing it to do something different.

Like... d8+d12 instead of d20 rolls. Saw some use a long time ago. Similar probability distribution to 2d10, but more center-weighted. Fell out of favor. Pity. You could use the d8 for hit locations or something.

Quote from: Cave Bear;847997Sometimes innovation is just a matter of taking something known and repurposing it to do something different.

Like... d8+d12 instead of d20 rolls. Saw some use a long time ago. Similar probability distribution to 2d10, but more center-weighted. Fell out of favor. Pity. You could use the d8 for hit locations or something.

d8 for hit locations is interesting but watch out for weird side effects like you get with Reign where you never hit anyone in the legs when they're wearing good armor

Quote from: Daztur;847999d8 for hit locations is interesting but watch out for weird side effects like you get with Reign where you never hit anyone in the legs when they're wearing good armor

Doesn't Reign use One Roll Engine?
(That's a pretty innovative system; not one I've had the pleasure of using though.)

Quote from: Cave Bear;848000Doesn't Reign use One Roll Engine?
(That's a pretty innovative system; not one I've had the pleasure of using though.)

Yeah and the hit location rules for that (for example) make so that if you're blind you can never ever hit anyone's legs but your accuracy is unimpaired otherwise.