i think much of this has to do with the game in question in 0d&d the simple hp gain was probly enough at least with the way Gygax played on the other had you have games where you never gain hp except maybe taking a ability like toughness and even that may be heavy limited depending on the system if you start with 100 hp an extra 3 or 4 hp no mater how rare means much less then that extra 3 or 4 hit pints in pretty much any ed of d&d except maybe 4e

Punctuation, motherfucker!! Do you use it?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;846622Punctuation, motherfucker!! Do you use it?

some times bad sadly i am one of those that tends to for get such things.
 sorry

Hey gronan! Kosmos1214 is probably a french dude. They don't know english pretty much at all and drag all their typing through a translator.

Or at least I keep telling myself that, but there are things in his texts that even a translator service wouldn't do...

Quote from: Moracai;846677Hey gronan! Kosmos1214 is probably a french dude. They don't know english pretty much at all and drag all their typing through a translator.

Or at least I keep telling myself that, but there are things in his texts that even a translator service wouldn't do...

If he's a non native English speaker I'll apologize.

Though they usually have WAY better English than I do...

Quote from: CRKrueger;842945The concept and belief in "Dead Levels" are the result of viewing the progress of a character through the game as an isolated series of mechanics.

There are many ways to treat reward and a character who is more than numbers on a page has goals.  A level is only "Dead" if the player sees no value in the change.
 
Since the previous level, how much money has the character obtained?  Can they afford better armor, weapons or other gear?  
Have they made alliances that gives them access to the resources of the powers that be in their area?  
Has their reputation increased so they can reap the many benefits available in their setting?  
Did they acquire magic, which could give them abilities beyond any level reward?

If your answer to that is "Yeah all that is great, but mechanically I'm exactly the same except a few HPs." then then issue isn't the system, it's your GM or your perception.

Winner!!!


Dead Levels?!? Bad Design-Seriously? Are you telling me there is no value in having someone weave a story and environment for you to interact with? Or the most important aspect is to have a couple of numbers scratched on a sheet?

Get off my lawn!

Dead Levels suck compared to levels where you get stuff. I figured that was pretty self-explanatory?

I hate being dead when I level up...

Quote from: Omega;846825I hate being dead when I level up...

Doesn't seem to hurt Vecna.

http://jimkang.com/namedlevels/#/class/Vecna

QuoteVecnas TABLE I.
Level Title
20-Sided Dice for Accumulated Hit Points
Experience Level
Experience Points
1    2    Student Vecna    1    —    2,500
2    3    Junior Vecna    2,501    —    4,500
3    4    Lesser Vecna    4,501    —    8,000
4    5    Cadet Vecna    8,001    —    14,500
5    6    Intern Vecna    14,501    —    31,000
6    7    Minor Vecna    31,001    —    70,000
7    8    Assistant Vecna    70,001    —    154,000
8    9    Trainee Vecna    154,001    —    165,000
9    10    Trainee Vecna (9th level)    165,001    —    185,000
10    11    Trainee Vecna (10th level)    185,001    —    220,000
11    12    Trainee Vecna (11th level)    220,001    —    265,000
12    13    Vecna    265,001    —    340,000
13    13+4    Prime Vecna    340,001    —    415,000
14    13+8    Master Vecna    415,001    —    490,000
15    13+12    Superior Master Vecna    490,001    —    565,000
16    13+16    Arch Master Vecna    565,001    —    640,000
17    13+20    The Number One Master Vecna    640,001    —    715,000
18    13+24    The Number One Master Vecna (18th level)    715,001    —    790,000
19    13+28    The Number One Head Vecna    790,001    —    865,000
20    13+32    The Number One Head Vecna (20th level)    865,001    —    940,000
21    13+36    The Number One Head Vecna (21st level)    940,001    —    1,015,000
22    13+40    The Number One Head Vecna (22nd level)    1,015,001    —    1,090,000
Vecnas gain 4 h.p. per level after the 12th.

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;846798Winner!!!


Dead Levels?!? Bad Design-Seriously? Are you telling me there is no value in having someone weave a story and environment for you to interact with? Or the most important aspect is to have a couple of numbers scratched on a sheet?

Get off my lawn!

When all that matters is what exactly you can do in a mechanical sense then no none of that matters.

The environment? You mean that scrolling two dimensional backdrop that exists only so that I can look awesome doing my kewl moves? What about it?

What matters is that MY numbers are biggerer and betterer so that I can compare them to other numbers and win challenges. Everything else is useless fluff! :rolleyes:

Quote from: Batman;846800Dead Levels suck compared to levels where you get stuff. I figured that was pretty self-explanatory?

It's a thinly disguised 'My game is better than your game' argument.  I just nod and move on, for the most part.

Personally, I like mechanical 'toys' to play with.  Some people do not.  There is no better, no worse.  Just is.

There should be some "point" to a level increase, otherwise the level increase is just a number on a sheet.  As OG notes, back in the day the HP was the reward, and really changed how your character felt.  If that's not how your system rolls, if HP is important but not something you salivate over, then there really should be some reason.

Can someone like Exploder Wizard tell me what the point is of incrementing a bunch of numbers on your sheet if nothing really changes about gameplay?  You complain that people are focused on mechanics, but you're missing the point.  By having a level up that has no gameplay impact, you have a levelup that is only mechanics - a bunch of munchkin-friendly +1 bonuses, if you will.  

Why would this be a good system?  Do tell.

Quote from: GreyICE;846948There should be some "point" to a level increase, otherwise the level increase is just a number on a sheet.  As OG notes, back in the day the HP was the reward, and really changed how your character felt.  If that's not how your system rolls, if HP is important but not something you salivate over, then there really should be some reason.

Can someone like Exploder Wizard tell me what the point is of incrementing a bunch of numbers on your sheet if nothing really changes about gameplay?  You complain that people are focused on mechanics, but you're missing the point.  By having a level up that has no gameplay impact, you have a levelup that is only mechanics - a bunch of munchkin-friendly +1 bonuses, if you will.  

Why would this be a good system?  Do tell.

I think the prestige of leveling up (including 1st Edition AD&D level titles) is an under-explored point in modern gaming.  Why do people get good at sports now?  For recognition and possibly wealth.  Going up a level shows greater excellence and, if not completely abstracted from the world, can be a means of gaining respect.  

And some elements are hard to abstract.  You can pretend you can't see a fighter going up in levels but the characters -- in game -- are probably working out the spell system.  

"He just cast disintegrate.  He must have the potential to cast a lot of spells, including a bunch of high level spells, unless he has a device and is a great showperson"

yes sorry English is my 1st language im just very bad with punctuation on the internet

Quote from: GreyICE;846948There should be some "point" to a level increase, otherwise the level increase is just a number on a sheet.  As OG notes, back in the day the HP was the reward, and really changed how your character felt.  If that's not how your system rolls, if HP is important but not something you salivate over, then there really should be some reason.

Can someone like Exploder Wizard tell me what the point is of incrementing a bunch of numbers on your sheet if nothing really changes about gameplay?  You complain that people are focused on mechanics, but you're missing the point.  By having a level up that has no gameplay impact, you have a levelup that is only mechanics - a bunch of munchkin-friendly +1 bonuses, if you will.  

Why would this be a good system?  Do tell.

Level gains do provide some mechanical benefit. Some hit points and a bonus or two might not seem like much because the real value in the level gain is for the player rather than the character. Surviving to higher levels is an indication of good play- something completely meaningless to the character.

Now once you change the game and everything important about play is on the character sheet and a fucking retarded monkey can push the buttons, then rewarding for good play is moot point because such a concept has been supplanted with the assumption of appropriate encounters and character survival.

In this case there DOES need to be a new shiny toy with every level. Gaining each level is no longer an achievement, it is an expectation that comes with a desire for more toys.