Quote from: Greentongue;844099Clearly I'm missing some point.
There is this HUGE map and "nobody much bothered with the underworld"?
=

After third or fourth level, yeah.  Or about a year or two.  And as Chirine said, we played for well over ten years almost constantly, and by the end we weren't even counting levels any more.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844112After third or fourth level, yeah.  Or about a year or two.  And as Chirine said, we played for well over ten years almost constantly, and by the end we weren't even counting levels any more.

One trip to the garden of the Weeping Snows was quite enough for me, thank you; Nyelmu has some really serious issues. I think we spent most of out time in the underworld in the top level, and those trips tended to me 'mission-based', being spawned by some intrigue going on up on the surface.

I'd agree with you; the last five to eight years out at Phil's, I think all we were doing was being our alter-egos. Game mechanics were really minimal.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844094Yeah, I'd say that was the case; after the very early days in his games, after we'd survived a few jaunts into the Underworld, we'd 'graduated' and spent most of our time up top. I did do a little Underworld exploration when I was in Hekellu, but that was as much for political purposes as anything else. Did find the most amazing things down there, though, including one of Phil's most secret and astonishing SNSs...

What was the SNS:)?

Quote from: Greentongue;844099Clearly I'm missing some point.
There is this HUGE map and "nobody much bothered with the underworld"?
=

My impression is that the people in this group liked producing maps. Whether they were going to be used or not.

Quote from: Greentongue;844100With all the restrictions on conflict above ground, what did you do in the early games?
=

Restrictions only matter if they find out it was you.
Paying an assassin clan, for example, creates an intermediary that can't be questioned. There are other ways as well;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844103It was a combination of things. Imperial politics, getting the war with Yan Kor started, visiting the First Temple of Lord Vimuhla, exploring some of the Jakalla Underworld, long boat trips on the missuma river with hot Livyani courtesans, assaulting the palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu, exploring the tubeway car system, making out with hot princesses, visiting the South Polar Space Marine base, looking in on the planetary defense fortress on the little red moon, seeing the two hobbits in the Bey Su palace gardens, meeting some of the Undying Wizards like Nyelmu, Thomar, and Turshamu, revealing Prince Mirusya and Prince Surandano, getting poisoned by hot Livyani courtesans, sight-seeing, discovering a new non-human race under the town of Tu'umnra, being chased around the Temple of Sarku by hordes of Undead, that kind of thing.

You know, all those 'adventurer things' like what John Carter, Dejah Thoris, Fafhrd, and the Grey Mouser do.

Seriously; Tekumel is a pretty busy place. The locals get up to all sorts of larks, and I got dragged along on most of them. It was pretty hectic, and I was glad for the long boat trip with Harchar to the Southern Continent to invade the Shen settlements there; very relaxing and peaceful, aside from fighting the Hlyss nest-ship and Arneson running the boat into the Southern continent - he was a superb sailor, but a lousy navigator.

The first couple of years were pretty frantic, but after we got the war going it quieted down a fair bit. Battles, sieges, that kind of thing, an it all seemed pretty relaxing...

...and once again I'm feeling like I'm running games in the early tradition:D!
It's almost a recurring motive with me, and not just when it comes to games.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844124One trip to the garden of the Weeping Snows was quite enough for me, thank you; Nyelmu has some really serious issues. I think we spent most of out time in the underworld in the top level, and those trips tended to me 'mission-based', being spawned by some intrigue going on up on the surface.

I'd agree with you; the last five to eight years out at Phil's, I think all we were doing was being our alter-egos. Game mechanics were really minimal.

Nyelmu? Say it ain't so:p!

What were Nyelmu's issues;)?

Were lineages within clans important?

Which clan were you in when you got married?  (husband or wife)
Were there restrictions on who you could marry?
Must you marry outside your clan for interbreeding reasons?

At what point did an issue go from personal to clan?

Were issues solved by ritual battles. The rules say that some are.
How common is this and could a proxy be used?
(personal as well as governmental)
=

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843895Thank you for joining the discussion! Let me have ago at this, if I may...

Thanks for your answer, chirine! Let me follow up with another religion-related question:

Where does Tékumel culture stand on the matter of polytheism vs. henotheism?

Would the average man or woman on the street worship, pray to, placate, sacrifice to or just take part in the church activities of all of the gods, always picking the one most relevant to the current situation (like in classical polytheism), or would they pick one as "this is the god I pray to" and stick with it (like in henotheism)?

Quote from: AsenRG;844182What was the SNS:)?

What were Nyelmu's issues;)?

The original standards of the Legion of the Translucent Emerald, 32nd Imperial Medium Infantry - A Very Big Deal! - and the discovery that the Temple of Vimuhla has what could be considered 'Undead'. I got to meet and hang out with the original Elara Ebbridda, ancestor of the current consort of Emperor Mirusiya - Elara hi Vriddi, of Fasiltum. There are, in the Tsolyani view, four states of matter and energy; the original Elara is currently made up of the fifth. Still a hot babe, even after all these millenia, especially if you are into plasma...

Nyelmu is a raving nutcase, and was imprisoned by the Gods in the Garden of the Weeping Snows for being a really nasty and downright evil bit of work. His idea of fun is to have guests put to the torture, and then 'freezing' them in this torment for all eternity with a modified 'Excellent Ruby Eye'. This is the least of his poor social behaviors; the Gods are a pretty liberal and understanding bunch, but they - and the Pariah Deities! - all agreed that Nyelmu had to be locked up to protect not only Tekumel, but all the other 772 worlds in their pocket universes.

And that's the good news.:eek:

Quote from: Greentongue;844208Were lineages within clans important?

Which clan were you in when you got married?  (husband or wife)
Were there restrictions on who you could marry?
Must you marry outside your clan for interbreeding reasons?

At what point did an issue go from personal to clan?

Were issues solved by ritual battles. The rules say that some are.
How common is this and could a proxy be used?
(personal as well as governmental)
=

Oh, yes; the clans have people who do nothing but keep track of who is in what lineage and clan. Lineages are very important!

I had started out in Eye of the Flame, a very old but very minor clan in the Chakas. I was inducted into Iron Helm by Imperial order for political reasons; I'm the clan-brother of the Disposer of Meku.

Their Ladyships, by order of seniority, were:

Si - clan-lineage in the Nyemesel Islands, famous for telepaths;
Dark Fear, then Golden Sunburst - hi Chaishyani, as Serqu owed me a favor;
secret - Livyani, best not to ask, high-status
secret - Livyani, better not to ask, higher-status
Sea Blue - buccaneer, really don't want to ask!!!

So, that's a Senior Wife, a Junior Wife, a First Concubine, a Second Concubine, and a Senior Courtesan in the household, with something like - oh, now I gotta count them - fourteen adopted and natural children of varying ages. Fifteen, counting the collateral daughter. I rejoice in the title of Husband, and if you think I have any say in the way the household runs, you got another thing coming. I say "Yes, dear", and do what I'm told. It makes army life seem so much more restful, especially when the twins get rambunctious.

Generally, the only real restriction is against marrying one's siblings. Normally, one marries outside one's lineage, but there's no real reason to have to marry outside the clan; the clans are usually large enough so that this is not an issue of genetics. Marrying outside the clan does happen, especially as a form of alliance; one marries into a clan that has good relations with one's own.

Issues normally stay personal, if they are personal in nature. Thus, if you insult me personally, I will have the right to demand satisfaction, usually in the form of Shamtla money. However, if I deem you to be of too low a status to be worth taking offense, I will simply ignore you. If the issue is really dire, like you insulting Their Ladyships or the kids, I may have you thrashed by the Bearers or the Porters for being of low status and an ignoble churl. (Assuming that Their Ladyships left enough of you alive to appreciate the thrashing, of course.)

If I was a person of moderate means, I would report the matter to my clan, which would report the matter to your clan, and the two clans would negotiate a solution. You might be asked to apologize, and your clan pay a sum for Shamtla. If your clan refused to negotiate, then my clan and I may issue you and your clan a challenge to meet in the Arena, where we would fight it out on agreed-upon terms. (To first blood, to the death, etc., depending on the seriousness of the offense / dispute.)

And yes, proxy fighters, usually hired player-characters, are used when one or the other party is unable to fight for themselves. It's more noble that way, and very common.

Note that the 'government' has not been mentioned. As I've mentioned in previous posts, the Imperium does not get involved in many matters, unless there's politics or rebellion in the air. When that happens, the culprit gets a fast arrest, a quick trial, and a slow execution. One can't insult an Imperial Prince or Princess personally, only officially; and if one does that, the Prince or Prince can have one of their people kill or thrash the offender - hence my being asked (not ordered!) to deal with that young Vriddi fool in Fasiltum.

[EDIT: One does not insult the Emperor; that's treated as treason, and gets the offender an impalement. Princes and Princesses do not socially recognize insults officially, as that's also treason and gets the offender's clan and family into real trouble; so, they keep it unofficial, and have the offender thrashed (for low-status people) or killed by their champion (for high-status people).

Does this help?

Quote from: Premier;844247Thanks for your answer, chirine! Let me follow up with another religion-related question:

Where does Tékumel culture stand on the matter of polytheism vs. henotheism?

Would the average man or woman on the street worship, pray to, placate, sacrifice to or just take part in the church activities of all of the gods, always picking the one most relevant to the current situation (like in classical polytheism), or would they pick one as "this is the god I pray to" and stick with it (like in henotheism)?

Sure thing; ask away!

There isn't a 'vs.' to this. Generally one worships one deity, based on personal belief, clan traditions, and sometimes geographical location. However, one also makes sure to make donations to other deities as might be needed; a devout worshipper of Lord Hry'y often visits the Temple of Avanthe to seek the Goddess's aid in pregnancy, for example, and warriors and soldiers from the Temples of Karakan, Chegarra, Vimhula, and Chiteng all make sure to do something nice for Lord Ketengu and Lady Avanthe for their help if one gets wounded.

The 'chaos/stabiity' 'dividing line' is very porous and very permeable. All of the 'theisms' are represented in and many and diverse cultures of Tekumel. For example, the Nlyss of Malchairan are very much Vimuhla worshippers, while the inhabitants of the Nyemesel Islands are all worshippers of the Goddess Mretten. In the Five Empires, it's much more diverse, with one having one's temple and also making sure that all bets are covered...

One thing to remember is that there are no 'atheists' on Tekumel. The Gods are real and active - they are not 'gods' in the way we use the term here on this planet, but rather highly-advanced beings that take an occasional interest in what the ants do in the ant farm...

Does this help?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844271I rejoice in the title of Husband, and if you think I have any say in the way the household runs, you got another thing coming. I say "Yes, dear", and do what I'm told. It makes army life seem so much more restful, especially when the twins get rambunctious.

This made me laugh out loud.  It's also quite true.  I may be Kerdudalikoi Korunme Mnashu hi Chaishyani of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il out on the battlefield and have the power of absolute life and death for my troops and know that any order I give will be instantly obeyed...

... but in the clan house I'm one of the swarms of young-married clan sons who are sent out on their various careers to enhance the status of the clan, and chivvied around, shooed out of the kitchen, and generally ignored most of the time at home.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844291This made me laugh out loud.  It's also quite true.  I may be Kerdudalikoi Korunme Mnashu hi Chaishyani of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il out on the battlefield and have the power of absolute life and death for my troops and know that any order I give will be instantly obeyed...

... but in the clan house I'm one of the swarms of young-married clan sons who are sent out on their various careers to enhance the status of the clan, and chivvied around, shooed out of the kitchen, and generally ignored most of the time at home.

Yep; ain't it the truth!!!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844261The original standards of the Legion of the Translucent Emerald, 32nd Imperial Medium Infantry - A Very Big Deal! - and the discovery that the Temple of Vimuhla has what could be considered 'Undead'. I got to meet and hang out with the original Elara Ebbridda, ancestor of the current consort of Emperor Mirusiya - Elara hi Vriddi, of Fasiltum. There are, in the Tsolyani view, four states of matter and energy; the original Elara is currently made up of the fifth. Still a hot babe, even after all these millenia, especially if you are into plasma...

Nyelmu is a raving nutcase, and was imprisoned by the Gods in the Garden of the Weeping Snows for being a really nasty and downright evil bit of work. His idea of fun is to have guests put to the torture, and then 'freezing' them in this torment for all eternity with a modified 'Excellent Ruby Eye'. This is the least of his poor social behaviors; the Gods are a pretty liberal and understanding bunch, but they - and the Pariah Deities! - all agreed that Nyelmu had to be locked up to protect not only Tekumel, but all the other 772 worlds in their pocket universes.

And that's the good news.:eek:

For some reason, that post has me smiling wickedly:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844271Generally, the only real restriction is against marrying one's siblings. Normally, one marries outside one's lineage, but there's no real reason to have to marry outside the clan; the clans are usually large enough so that this is not an issue of genetics. Marrying outside the clan does happen, especially as a form of alliance; one marries into a clan that has good relations with one's own.

This is one area where I've decided that My Tekumel Varies. Marrying a clan relative is forbidden. Well, at least in Livyanu, I mean!
I mean, what's better for drama than not being able to marry your childhood sweetheart;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844283Sure thing; ask away!

There isn't a 'vs.' to this. Generally one worships one deity, based on personal belief, clan traditions, and sometimes geographical location. However, one also makes sure to make donations to other deities as might be needed; a devout worshipper of Lord Hry'y often visits the Temple of Avanthe to seek the Goddess's aid in pregnancy, for example, and warriors and soldiers from the Temples of Karakan, Chegarra, Vimhula, and Chiteng all make sure to do something nice for Lord Ketengu and Lady Avanthe for their help if one gets wounded.

The 'chaos/stabiity' 'dividing line' is very porous and very permeable. All of the 'theisms' are represented in and many and diverse cultures of Tekumel. For example, the Nlyss of Malchairan are very much Vimuhla worshippers, while the inhabitants of the Nyemesel Islands are all worshippers of the Goddess Mretten. In the Five Empires, it's much more diverse, with one having one's temple and also making sure that all bets are covered...

One thing to remember is that there are no 'atheists' on Tekumel. The Gods are real and active - they are not 'gods' in the way we use the term here on this planet, but rather highly-advanced beings that take an occasional interest in what the ants do in the ant farm...

Does this help?

And here I had remained with the impression that Tekumel has pure henoteism, and decided to change it.
The change is that you'd have your "traditional" god or goddess, and then cover all the bases:p!
Yeah, I can't claim originality on that account, really:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;844297This is one area where I've decided that My Tekumel Varies. Marrying a clan relative is forbidden. Well, at least in Livyanu, I mean!
I mean, what's better for drama than not being able to marry your childhood sweetheart;)?


And here I had remained with the impression that Tekumel has pure henoteism, and decided to change it.
The change is that you'd have your "traditional" god or goddess, and then cover all the bases:p!
Yeah, I can't claim originality on that account, really:D!

Actually, we don't know that Your Tekumel Varies; it's Livyanu, after all, where the locals don't tell their left hands what their right hands are doing, let alone share anything with us foreigners. It would not surprise me that you have penetrated to the heart of the mystery, though...

Nope; you got it.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844320Actually, we don't know that Your Tekumel Varies; it's Livyanu, after all, where the locals don't tell their left hands what their right hands are doing, let alone share anything with us foreigners. It would not surprise me that you have penetrated to the heart of the mystery, though...

Nope; you got it.

Is that why they love dual-wielding:D?

Also, yeah, that's part of why I chose to put my game in Livyanu. I can always change stuff back once we reach Jakalla:).
For all my faults, I've never thought I am above such things as getting setting details wrong the first time I play a new setting.

I got it while thinking I'm changing it. That confirms that it's a setting that follows a logic I can relate to, I guess;).

Are there bathhouses and water closets for public use?
When on the street do people use the closest wall or allyway to releave themselves?

Are perfumes and scented oils popular?
How often do people bath?

Are there food vendors on the streets or only clan house that sspecialize in specific foods and drinks?
=

Quote from: Greentongue;844325Are there bathhouses and water closets for public use?
When on the street do people use the closest wall or allyway to releave themselves?

Are perfumes and scented oils popular?
How often do people bath?

Are there food vendors on the streets or only clan house that sspecialize in specific foods and drinks?
=

"It depends."

Tsolyanu is an empire of millions of people, millions of acres, and many cities, towns, and villages.  Look long enough and far enough and you'll find damn near anything.