Quote from: chirine ba kal;843029I would agree with all of this, especially in our games over the years. What I'm mentioning is what I've seen at the big local FLGS and at the local conventions / events, where anything 'homemade' or 'unofficial' is very strongly discouraged by the FLGS or the event / tournament / convention organizers. The players I've seen in these are all pretty much the same way - if it isn't 'authorized for use with', it doesn't get on the table. The historical miniatures guys are still doing all the mix and match home-brew stuff, but that's been the nature of that genre since the 1960s.

Yeah, "Games Workshop" is notorious for that.  I still have a bundle of miscellaneous RPG minis and never worried much about having the "right" figure.

And in the case of historical minis modelers, any excuse to make up a new cohort of figures was eagerly taken, which is how you ended up with so much miscellaneous Tekumel stuff, and Phil got his "Idol of Horus."

For that matter it's why one of my HO scale diesel switchers has the rerailing frogs (75 pound steel castings in real life) tossed up on the walkway in gross violation of FRA rules; real people get sloppy all the time.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843030Yeah, "Games Workshop" is notorious for that.  I still have a bundle of miscellaneous RPG minis and never worried much about having the "right" figure.

And in the case of historical minis modelers, any excuse to make up a new cohort of figures was eagerly taken, which is how you ended up with so much miscellaneous Tekumel stuff, and Phil got his "Idol of Horus."

For that matter it's why one of my HO scale diesel switchers has the rerailing frogs (75 pound steel castings in real life) tossed up on the walkway in gross violation of FRA rules; real people get sloppy all the time.

Funny you should mention GW. Their older plastic one-part Elven spearmen are dead ringers for your legion, once you give them a Foundry rectangular shield. The Missus got me 80 of them dirt cheap on the web from some guy, so you and your doughty lads and lasses are now sitting in one of the legion trays in the basement.

Lots of their 'dark elf' figures do very well for Livyani, which is a big help to me as we never got the chance to make any of those, and I doubt anybody ever will.

You should see the looks I get from GW players at The Source, when I run games with them...

Example 1:
Re the labor, yes. When Vrisa used to go shopping in the marketplace, I'd be there to watch her back; we'd accumulate a retinue of small to medium children, market urchins of all sorts, who would tag along to 'be helpful. We never, every carried anything ourselves - this ad hoc and then later formal retinue would do all of that for us. (For a suitable - and usually small - tip, of course.) I eventually hired some dozen bearers for a trip from Meku to Fasiltum, and they have stayed with me ever since - I even have my own personal Chlen-cart for my luggage.

Example 2:
"When you did have an entourage, it was usually of hired 'contract worker',"

What determines when you are surrounded by people that cater to your every need and when you are on fending for yourself?

Does an entourage imply an important/high status person or just someone from a clan with a lot of excess labor?
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Quote from: Greentongue;843251What determines when you are surrounded by people that cater to your every need and when you are on fending for yourself?

Does an entourage imply an important/high status person or just someone from a clan with a lot of excess labor?
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Well, it's partly on the social context and on how much money you have to pay for the people. When we were just starting out in Phil's campaign, we were pretty much on our own all the time - I did the cooking, for example, when we were 'out in the field'. After I got an appointment as an officer in a legion - low-ranking, of course - then I had an orderly who looked after me when I was with the legion. If I was detached, like on an adventure, it would be back to the basics and I'd be doing the cooking again.

This lasted until I got appointed as an Imperial official and inducted into a high-status clan; I got a very nice salary, which meant that I could hire retainers on a much more permanent basis. Being married by then, the Lady Of The House - Phil used the Ancient Egyptian title - ran the household and I enjoyed the benefits. When we were first starting our household, all we had were the bearers I had hired to move us from Meku to Fasiltum, and they considered it to be A Scandal! that the Noble Lady didn't even have a maid of her own - many disapproving comments were made in my direction, especially by the female bearers, who appointed themselves my wife's temporary maidservants for the trip. We menfolk just got on with the packing, carrying, and things like making the nightly fire.

Once I became a Governor, then I had lots of palace staff to contend with; they all had their own agendas, and I tended to rely on my own legion's troops for things like personal guards and such; the Lady Of The House got her own maids, and hired staff as needed for trips. In our current positions, we have an extensive staff of both military and 'civilian' people, although the dividing line is pretty fuzzy. Her three maids still work directly for her, but the Ladies-in-Waiting work for the majordomo, who works for her. She still runs the household, and I get fussed over a lot; there's talk that I need to have a 'gentleman's gentleman' to look after me - I need a nanny, the Adjutant says, in addition to my half-dozen guards who try to keep me out of trouble.

To quote one of my bodyguards: "Your Lordship will feel much better after Your Lordship kills something." (He was right, too.)

If I was allowed to go on an adventure, I'd probably have to / be able to tend to things myself, but being of high status and rank there would be some muttering in the ranks over it.

Generally, a retinue - even of one person - is an indicator of higher status and dignity. Even a poor clan will make sure that any of its people who are out in public will have a retinue appropriate to the person's status. Certainly, a clan with a lot of 'extra mouths' will put on a really big show - it looks better for the clan and the person being accompanied.

It's like clothing - more and better clothing also indicates wealth and status. Inside the family quarters of the palace or clan house, things are usually very informal, and you don't have many of the social norms that you do when out in public. Age is the status marker, here; a mighty and powerful clan-master will be delighted to be able to serve his elderly clan-mother, no matter what his rank and station might be. If they were out in public, he'd get great respect for being her helper, again because of her high status as one of the elders of the clan.

Again, it' all about the social context. Somebody well-dressed ands accompanied by a number of servants is going to be of high status, and well worth being polite to. Out in public, this is how one determines who is who.

Is this answering your question? Am I helping? I worry...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843024Phil tended to have the 'shafts' go down from the surface sites, kind of like a vertical mine. I have no idea why he never published any of them - they were all pretty good to play in, and his draftsmanship is astonishing.

Instead, we got things like that Judges Guild module with the ridiculous maze. Sheesh. How could Phil stand by and watch stuff like that get published?

Quote from: The_Shadow;843349Instead, we got things like that Judges Guild module with the ridiculous maze. Sheesh. How could Phil stand by and watch stuff like that get published?

I'm guessing he was busy with other things.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843326Is this answering your question? Am I helping? I worry...

This is Exactly the type of thing that helps, when trying to make it feel like the characters are "Not in Kansas Anymore" while still be playable.

My personal take was that I could use "levels" as indicators of status.
A person can only directly address a person of up to 2 ranks above them.
For example, a level 1 would be able to interact (politely) with a level 3 but a level 4 would have a 'gentleman's gentleman' to handle such lowly concerns.

While not "authentic" it is easy to use for representing the stratification in Game terms. It also gives tasks for lower ranks to do.

Would this be completely unacceptable to represent social interactions outside of The Line of Duty?
If so, what was/should be used?
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Quote from: The_Shadow;843349Instead, we got things like that Judges Guild module with the ridiculous maze. Sheesh. How could Phil stand by and watch stuff like that get published?

The first level of the Jakallan underworld has a huge maze almost exactly in the middle.  Like 700 x 700 feet.  And it's a true maze, one valid path, dead ends, etc.

Quote from: Bren;843369I guessing he was busy with other things.

My guess would be the same;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843386The first level of the Jakallan underworld has a huge maze almost exactly in the middle.  Like 700 x 700 feet.  And it's a true maze, one valid path, dead ends, etc.

Were there many "entrances" into it from above?

What was in the middle?  
Was its purpose just to detain or to disguise access to other places?
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Quote from: Bren;843369I'm guessing he was busy with other things.

Um, no, actually. He did not license this product; TSR did, under the terms of their contract with the Professor. He had no recourse, under the terms of the contract, and it was one of the numerous reasons that he and the Blumes parted ways.

Quote from: Greentongue;843385This is Exactly the type of thing that helps, when trying to make it feel like the characters are "Not in Kansas Anymore" while still be playable.

My personal take was that I could use "levels" as indicators of status.
A person can only directly address a person of up to 2 ranks above them.
For example, a level 1 would be able to interact (politely) with a level 3 but a level 4 would have a 'gentleman's gentleman' to handle such lowly concerns.

While not "authentic" it is easy to use for representing the stratification in Game terms. It also gives tasks for lower ranks to do.

Would this be completely unacceptable to represent social interactions outside of The Line of Duty?
If so, what was/should be used?
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Whew! That's a relief! I do worry.

Yes, I think you have a perfectly workable method going, here. Yes, a lowly person would instinctively look for the majordomo or senior servant - even a low level clan-cousin or something of the high-status person.

If I may as a question - and I am not trying to 'flame' you or anything, why are you using the  phrase not "authentic" for these kinds of 'game mechanics'? Based on my time with Phil, this is a perfectly 'authentic' way of dealing with this in a game setting. In my own games, I use a very similar mechanic, with the only difference being that I tend to use Phil's label of 'Circle' instead of level; viz: Phil to another player: "Chirine is a Tenth-Circle Military Priest; be nice to him, and he'll be nice to you."

It would be perfectly acceptable to do this, at least from seeing how Phil did it in his games.

(And, because I'm up early, waiting for my anniversary dinner to arrive - it's my 25th wedding anniversary today, and I have to go in to work, so I am a little cranky right now - this also assumes that one regards Prof. M. A. R. Barker as some sort of authority of expert on the world of Tekumel. I have been assured, in all seriousness, by some Big-Name Tekumel Fans, that he is not, and was Doing it Wrong.) :eek:

Quote from: Greentongue;843445Were there many "entrances" into it from above?

What was in the middle?  
Was its purpose just to detain or to disguise access to other places?
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Yeah, there were about eight entrances into the first level area; they all came down from various surface locations all over Jakalla, and got you into some interesting stuff pretty quickly. Speaking as a GM, you have to be a little careful with them; they can dump the party right into a section that they want to go to, which makes for a shorter and less interesting adventure.

There is nothing really 'special' in the middle of the thing, as I recall; it acts as a 'buffer state' between the various Temple's portions of the level, and serves as the scene of quite a few encounters with the critters and people who are down there. Not to say it's not worth exploring; Phil stashed away some very neat little games of room in the the maze, so it's always worth looking around in there if you have the time.
So yes, it does detain and delay, as well as provide disguises to locations - I tell ya, there's nothing more disconcerting to suddenly pop out of a stock and standard corridor to find oneself and one's party smack dab in the main Hall of the Temple of Hry'y, with a mob of priests and guard looking at you...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843386The first level of the Jakallan underworld has a huge maze almost exactly in the middle.  Like 700 x 700 feet.  And it's a true maze, one valid path, dead ends, etc.

Were you there the night Gary Rudolph got bored mapping the maze, and blew a straight-line hole through the walls with an Eye? It's still on my copy of the map...

Is there a way to post the picture of you holding the map at my Gary Con game here? It's on my blog, in the Gary Con posts, but I'm not Internet-literate to figure out how to do it...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843448If I may as a question - and I am not trying to 'flame' you or anything, why are you using the  phrase not "authentic" for these kinds of 'game mechanics'? Based on my time with Phil, this is a perfectly 'authentic' way of dealing with this in a game setting. In my own games, I use a very similar mechanic, with the only difference being that I tend to use Phil's label of 'Circle' instead of level; viz: Phil to another player: "Chirine is a Tenth-Circle Military Priest; be nice to him, and he'll be nice to you."

It would be perfectly acceptable to do this, at least from seeing how Phil did it in his games.

As I told Gronan of Simmerya, effectively I'm trying to reconstruct the original game from "Postcards".  

When I run my fingerpainting version of EPT, I want to at least have as many broad strokes as possible within the lines of the original.

Having someone that played in the original and in a style that I expected for the setting, show me where those "lines" are, is very helpful.
I think someone that was in the original game as about as "authentic" as you can get for identifying what is "inside the lines".

Who knows, I may not be the only one that misses the simple pleasure of the old Sword & Planet stories.
Where things were black & white and Unknown!

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From reading the first 2 novels, later available information is not a perfect fit for how I envisioned the world based on just the EPT rule book.
I get concerned with trying add in "authentic" things learned later that were not in the original rules.
Trying to determine if I would be better off just sticking with the original and all of its warts.  
Let others worry about the Perfect Tekumel.
Just swing my sword in the old fashion way.
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