I did like Vitality/Wounds as a primary option, but after Star Wars Saga Edition came out, I latched onto that system as my favorite. Characters have HP and no Wounds. Damage is taken from HP, but if a character suffers damage from one attack that is higher than his Fortitude Defense (which is 10+Con. Bonus+Level+Class Bonus), he steps one level down the condition track, which results in penalties to attacks/defense/actions. There are five levels of this condition track (-1/-2/-5/-10/out of commission).

If you just take nicks and scrapes all combat, you won't suffer the penalties until your HP hits zero. If a character does hit 0 HP, he drops five steps down the condition track automatically, regardless of whether has taken any massive blows. But he cannot die unless he takes a blow that exceeds his Fortitude Defense, which would be similar to a coup de grâce.

Hey that's pretty nice. I can see how it would work with the regular d20 powercurve while making combat have a real edge.

May have to try that out someday.

I tried (or read about) various alternatives, but none of them did it for me. Often they are just extra complexities added on to a hitpoints system, and I wanted to retain the simplicity of D&D as far as I could.

In the end I hit on a wound system, where any hit that hurts you but doesn't kill you gives you a wound (or wounds), and you just record the cumulative total. All you have to track for each combatant is the number of wounds they have, and I typically use d6s to make that quick and easy.

Wounds makes you worse at parrying/dodging so you are more likely to get hit, and any hit is also more likely to kill you. Hence being wounded moves the battle towards a conclusion, but because you're not worse in your attacks you can always still pull it out of the bag - it never becomes a foregone conclusion.

I've found it satisfies my urge for a less abstract system. That is, I appreciate that if my PC is wounded 2, and the Ogre is wounded 2, we are both just as badly wounded - I know exactly what it means. I did intend to add hit locations and extra detail, but it's never been needed.

There's a proper explanation in the link in my sig, and here's an example of combat.

That is pretty similar to a simplified Harnmaster.

Quote from: GreyICE;841979Liked one system I saw where you had a small number of wounds but gained power when you took them, and I really like that "HP as buffer, wounds once HP runs out" system above, but in general hate that "wounds make everything suck" thing.

Huh? In what My Little Pony corner of reality do wounds not suck? They're a bad thing... make it harder to concentrate and get stuff done. They're not gold stars that you collect and spend on a power-up.

Quote from: Simlasa;842013Huh? In what My Little Pony corner of reality do wounds not suck? They're a bad thing... make it harder to concentrate and get stuff done. They're not gold stars that you collect and spend on a power-up.

The corner of "I like my combat systems to let my players have a legitimate back-and-forth fight instead of having the outcome practically predetermined by the first round but last for a while" corner.

I play my games 'cause they're fun, not 'cause they're some sort of OCD reality simulator project.  I happen to rather like systems where you don't I guess "Death Spiral".  If that makes D&D "My Little Pony", well, I'm going to go play with Ponies, you try and work out how the latest kludged together monstrosity works.

Come on guys, there really isn't a wrong way to do this. Just approaches that are wrong for you or your group

Quote from: Arkansan;842020Come on guys, there really isn't a wrong way to do this. Just approaches that are wrong for you or your group

Nope, he's not 'wrong'... just very far off from what I want/expect out of combat, which is danger and a reason to avoid it. Nothing OCD about it.

Wounds as power-up would work great for some genres.

It certainly tracks well to many action movies where the more punishment the hero takes the more badass he becomes for the end fight.

I am mixed on Death Spiral games. I like the "realism", but I really like combat in RPGs and Death Spirals exist to make combat something to avoid.

Quote from: Simlasa;842023Nope, he's not 'wrong'... just very far off from what I want/expect out of combat, which is danger and a reason to avoid it. Nothing OCD about it.

Agreed. I prefer that every combat carry substantial risks, death or permanent injury should be the norm when folks are swinging sharp objects about.

Quote from: tenbones;841996Hey that's pretty nice. I can see how it would work with the regular d20 powercurve while making combat have a real edge.

May have to try that out someday.

The other cool this is that you can use armor, which usually gives a bonus from +1 to around +8, but to do so you cannot add your level to your Reflex Defense. This means that armor really helps low level characters more and the higher you get, the less effective it is because by then your level bonus will outstrip the bonus from any armor you could wear. This would simulate the Conan-type characters who run around without armor on.

An example would be a Level 4 fighter with a 13 Dex wearing a Chain Mail vest (+6). He would have a Reflex Defense of 17 (10+1+6). If that same fighter were level 10, he would substitute his level instead of the armor because he would get four extra points. 21 (10+1+10). If my memory serves me, there is also a feat that allows you to wear the armor and also add half of your level to your Defense score. This would work as a class ability in an OSR game.

Unless you are striving for a particular effect, the vanilla D&D hp/combat system is the best all-around combat system for speed, simplicity, and realism.

Think of two fighters duking it out. No matter how big or bad you are, if you get nailed just right in the groin, the solar plexus, the liver, the side of the chin, etc., the fight is over. Unskilled fighters aren't very good at defending these vital spots, so they can often be taken down in a single round/attack.

But when you get into a fight with skilled combatants, they are trained/experienced in defending these vital spots. In order to land a telling blow against a skilled opponent, you're going to have to wear them out over time, use a combination, set up a rhythm and then break it, explore their reflexes/defenses, etc., in order to land that one blow that will end the fight.

This is exactly how hp and D&D combat works. You can take out a low-level opponent quickly, but it usually takes time to finish off a skilled opponent.

And since it is really that last blow or two that does the real damage, you could realistically have characters fight at full strength until they reach 0 hp, and they can realistically regain many of their hp by taking a short rest after the fight. This is why boxing & MMA use timed rounds separated by short breaks.

But what about deadly weapons, such as swords and guns? Yes, when weapons like these are used, combat tends to get real deadly real fast. This is also approximated in D&D fantasy combat. In D&D, swords and arrows aren't the really dangerous weapons, fireballs and death magic are. So it can take a while to kill a skilled combatant with swords, but a high hp PC can get killed real quick with D&D's "deadly weapons" - a lightning bolt.

Yes, taking real life damage can make you better in combat, it all depends on the nature of the wound, the nature of the person, and their skill/training. Taking wounds can sometimes increase your concentration, your aggressiveness, your strength/power, and so forth. There is nothing inherently unrealistic about receiving combat bonuses for taking wounds.

This is why D&D's combat system has been used by so many other games: it works, it works well, and it works well on many levels.

Quote from: Vanquishing Leviathan;842065There is nothing inherently unrealistic about receiving combat bonuses for taking wounds.

That's a stretch.
I can see an outside chance that getting stabbed or clubbed might enrage a guy to put some extra oomph into an attack... but I don't see it being all that likely to cancel the negatives of damage from an actual 'wound' (more than a minor cut or scratch).
I've been a few situation were I've lost enough blood, quickly, from a relatively small hole, that my head was starting to swim.
Even with the vague possibility of some perk from a wound I don't see it as anything a fighter could rely on.

A system of bonuses like that remind me of the Warriors in WOW that need to get beaten on to build up Rage... it's a video game thing.

Quote from: Simlasa;842087I've been a few situation were I've lost enough blood, quickly, from a relatively small hole, that my head was starting to swim.

I hate to bring realism into a conversation about RPGs, but strictly medically, sudden drop in blood pressure causes that head swimming thing. Also getting punched in the head. I like to watch MMA matches, and they many times end with one good attack landing.

Yay elitest shitstains.

A good video game is better than bad roleplaying.