Quote from: jibbajibba;836909Except of course Wisdom is a really stupid stat to use for perception and it exposes the fact that D&D shoudl have bitten the bullet and included a Perception stat as a separate item back in 2e.

Wisdom seems sensible for perception to me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838034Wisdom seems sensible for perception to me.

Some people want a stat for everything.

Skills and Powers gave players exactly that and they bitched about it.

Strength = Stamina & Muscle
Dexterity= Aim & Balance
Constitution = Health & Fitness
Intelligence = Reason Knowledge
Wisdom = Intuition & Willpower
Charisma = Leadership & Appearance

Intuition acted alot like perception.

I liked Skills & Powers stat divide. However I reworded DEX into Coordination and Reflexes/Senses because I also didn't like the "all wise animals, all the time" trope. That split made it easier to stat other humanoid/demihumans without always requiring +WIS stuff in their template.

But then attributes in 2e had different mod progressions with wider stretches of normal. And attribute mods didn't cascade into as many things, thus weren't mission critical to squeeze out every last drop. Given how many things DEX touches in 5e, how consistent mod progression is, and how many things it cascades into, I wouldn't house rule it in 5e without other changes first.

Not so sure DEX is as vital as some claim if you are a non-spellcaster aside from the slight AC bump or for DEX saves.

Back to PP. While doing a list for Kefra on various animals noted an interesting thing. Almost none of the normal animals (or even abnormal ones) have a PP over 13. Eagle, Hawk and Panther hit 14.(As do the Giant Eagle and Giant Elk.) Giant Owl hits 15.

DEX also affects initiative, most ranged weapon attacks, finesse, 3 skills, and one of the two responses allowed in Grapple and Shove contested rolls. Atop of AC and Saves already noted. We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

As for the animals, I do like what they did with the Keen [Sense/s] as a Special Trait. Giving Adv on certain senses, and by extension +5 to their Passive Perception on that specific sense, helps avoid design clutter. Does require a bit more system familiarity and cross-referencing, but meh, what're ya'gonna do?

Quote from: Omega;838082Some people want a stat for everything.

Skills and Powers gave players exactly that and they bitched about it.

Strength = Stamina & Muscle
Dexterity= Aim & Balance
Constitution = Health & Fitness
Intelligence = Reason Knowledge
Wisdom = Intuition & Willpower
Charisma = Leadership & Appearance

Intuition acted alot like perception.

  Like so much of Skills & Powers, the problem was in implementation, not concept. The concept was fine--allow ability scores to be subdivided for those who really want to get down into the fine details of character definition--but the execution was such that many of the pairings were unbalanced, especially given D&D's tendency to reward specialization, the way the bonus curve worked, and the ability to allow a 4-point differential between subabilities. Strength was the worst offender, since Stamina only really applied to encumbrance and carrying capacity, things a lot of groups handwaved anyway.

  Personally, my favorite stat spread remains the group from Dragonlance: Fifth Age--Strength, Endurance, Agility, Dexerity, Reason, Perception, Spirit and Presence. It's the D&D lineup with Dexterity and Wisdom split up into more precisely defined components.

Quote from: Omega;837471What people keep missing is that the passive checks are for when the PCs are just strolling along and the more naturally attentive characters will naturally spot so-n-so. But not everything has a passive chance to spot it. The DM can just as likely say there is no chance to spot a trap for example due to circumstance.

If you werent searching then thats that.

I like having passive perception as a reference but I don't like comparing static values to static values. So instead of giving traps and other hidden clues a static DC, I will give them a hide bonus as if it were an npc. That way, if actively searching it becomes an opposed roll and if not, a static perception vs a hide roll.

I like for there to be some variable factor in the mix. It is a bit too cookie cutter for my taste that a character with a passive perception of 13 will never fail to notice a DC 12 hidden object and will never happen to spot a DC 14 hidden object. I like for there to be a bit of variance in both situations. A very perceptive character could be distracted at just the wrong moment and a less perceptive character could be in the right place at the right time.

Except DEX isnt doing my Warlock much good, its not helping Kefra's Druid really either. She doesnt get even the AC bonus when in beast form. The only person in the group getting any real use aside from an AC bump out of DEX is Jan's archery Fighter. Moreso for the group I am DMing for. All of them are magic or melee. James' paladin has used a bow all of once I think.

So like all the other stats its situational. With the right group or player its vital. Otherwise possibly not as much.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;838195Like so much of Skills & Powers, the problem was in implementation, not concept.

Yeah definitly could have been done better.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;838216I like having passive perception as a reference but I don't like comparing static values to static values. So instead of giving traps and other hidden clues a static DC, I will give them a hide bonus as if it were an npc. That way, if actively searching it becomes an opposed roll and if not, a static perception vs a hide roll.

I like for there to be some variable factor in the mix. It is a bit too cookie cutter for my taste that a character with a passive perception of 13 will never fail to notice a DC 12 hidden object and will never happen to spot a DC 14 hidden object. I like for there to be a bit of variance in both situations. A very perceptive character could be distracted at just the wrong moment and a less perceptive character could be in the right place at the right time.

Hide still needs a skill roll so its not static.

I was actually surprised the traps did not have some sort of variable. Like the crafters skills being a factor. Like roll a d6 and on 1-3 subtract 1-3 from the DC and on a 4-6 add 1-3 to the DC to simulate the variables in the crafters skills.

Quote from: Omega;838229Except DEX isnt doing my Warlock much good, its not helping Kefra's Druid really either...

Off topic, I find the way you always refer to your two female fellow players by name, as if you expect the thread readers to know them, really weird. :confused:

Quote from: S'mon;838236Off topic, I find the way you always refer to your two female fellow players by name, as if you expect the thread readers to know them, really weird. :confused:

I dont expect anyone know them. And not just the female ones, Nox, James and Daern are male players. I am just being more respectful of the players rather than just nameless the Druid, the Fighter, the Sorcerer, etc.

I used to just name classes. But someone here I believe made a point that speaking of the adventurers that way made them read as less real, vital, whatever. So I've been trying not to do that anymore.

Me? I often refer to my players by their PC's name to their faces.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838330Me? I often refer to my players by their PC's name to their faces.

Yup. Same here. Simple and quite effective too

Quote from: Omega;838274I dont expect anyone know them. And not just the female ones, Nox, James and Daern are male players. I am just being more respectful of the players rather than just nameless the Druid, the Fighter, the Sorcerer, etc.

I used to just name classes. But someone here I believe made a point that speaking of the adventurers that way made them read as less real, vital, whatever. So I've been trying not to do that anymore.

I find it helpful for continuity among the gameplay experiences posts. Much better than "Druid and Fighter B walk into a bar..."