Quote from: RandallS;837919Note that is is probably not the rules I'd use to do this, but I don't see these rules as so broken that wouldn't work okay at many tables.

That's hardly a glowing endorsement of them! The difficulty is making a good set of rules, not ones that aren't completely broken...

Anyway, isn't your system pretty much D&D3E multiclassing?

Quote from: JoeNuttall;837920That's hardly a glowing endorsement of them! The difficulty is making a good set of rules, not ones that aren't completely broken...

First, I don't endose rules I've never playtested. I was simply saying that the issues you pointed out did not really seem to be problems to me.

QuoteAnyway, isn't your system pretty much D&D3E multiclassing?

Hardly. In Microlite74, dual-classing (which is an optional rule) is from first level and the xp cost for the character is the total of the two classes plus a bit more as an advantage cost.

The Microlite74 version of the single "Adventurer" class is also an optional rule from the first M74 Companion volume as follows:

QuoteAdventurer Class
For a less complex game where all characters can do everything, replace the standard classes with the Adventurer class.

Adventurers can wear any kind of armor, can use all weapons and may use shields. Physical Combat Bonus is equal to their class level/3, rounded up. Magical Combat Bonus is equal to their class level/3, rounded up. Experience Base is 30. They select one save for a +2 bonus and a second save for a +1
bonus. They add +1 to all attack and damage rolls. This increases by +1 at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.They can cast spells from scrolls at the normal HP cost plus 1HP for every bonus point of armor they are wearing. They can use all magic items. They can permanently learn a spell from a scroll
by expending XP equal to the HP cost to cast the spell. Adventurers are considered a "Fighting Class."
Version Suitability: Any.

Notes for the GM: This optional rule is good for swords & sorcery style campaigns where magic is fairly rare and actual wizards and other magic using specialists are even less common. If used, the Adventurer class should be the only class used in the game, except for rare NPC mages or
clerics. Using the optional Talents and/or the optional Advantages and Disadvantages rules will allow some mechanical customization of characters.

The above quoted text is open game content under the OGL. And this isn't "how I would do multiclassing or a single Adventurer class in general", just how I do them for Microlite74.

Quote from: RandallS;837923Hardly.

I don't understand - your multiclassing rules here (not the Microlite74 rules) sound *exactly* like D&D3E. How is it so different?

On the other hand your Microlite74 rules appear to be a completely different multiclassing system, basically AD&D multiclassing.

Quote from: RandallS;837923First, I don't endose rules I've never playtested.

A good stance - I wish more people did that!!

Quote from: JoeNuttall;837926I don't understand - your multiclassing rules here (not the Microlite74 rules) sound *exactly* like D&D3E. How is it so different?

I'm confused. I haven't posted any multiclassing rules other than the ones for M74 in this thread.  I think that 3.x "you can pick a different class every time you level up" system of multiclassing is one of the worst features of WOTC D&D.

Quote from: John Quixote;837909Classless OSR?  Easy as fuck.

...

Exactly. Whatever details most appeal to you, that is the spirit.

Quote from: RandallS;837930I'm confused. I haven't posted any multiclassing rules other than the ones for M74 in this thread.  I think that 3.x "you can pick a different class every time you level up" system of multiclassing is one of the worst features of WOTC D&D.

I got you confused with John Quixote - sorry!

As penance I've downloaded a copy of your Microlite74 rules to read.

I meant that the rules John Quixote's presented just a few posts ago were in effect the 3.x "you can pick a different class every time you level up" system reskinned as being "classless".

I hope my comments make more sense now...

I can't really see a classless DnD until you shove in a load of skills into the game that hand you out features.  Though here is my thoughts on it.

Level 1

• You get wound equal to CON score.
• You get spirit equal to WIS score.  (For games I make I often have a physical and mental/spirit hit points.)
• You get ten heroic points.  (aka HP/MP, Vitality/Mana, Buffer Health/Energy Pool)
• You get 10 + INT mod of skill points.
• You get your race features.
• You get your background features.  (Because I love backgrounds.)
• You get your starting languages.
• You get your starting gear.

Level 2 to 10

• You get +1 heroic per level up.
• You get 2 + INT mod of skill points per level up. (min of 1)

Level 11 to 20

• You get +1 heroic per level up.
• You get INT mod of skill points per level up.  (min of 1)

Level 21 and Beyond (cause I hate level caps)

• You get +1 heroic per level up.
• You get 1 skill point per level up.

Now the thing with skill points is that they range from 0 (trained) to 8 (mythical).  The cost of a skill purchase would be 1 skill point for a skill rank increase, or three skill points for a brand new skill.

I'm sure a game of that sort could work fine, though it is more complex than appeals to me. I think D&D is best suited to no skills whatsoever — just base die rolls on stats (and perhaps level, if that is not already influencing stats). I figure, your sheet already has 6 complex numbers that lie on a spectrum not so far from that of a d20 die roll, why not use them for something?

Quote from: Larsdangly;837947I'm sure a game of that sort could work fine, though it is more complex than appeals to me. I think D&D is best suited to no skills whatsoever — just base die rolls on stats (and perhaps level, if that is not already influencing stats). I figure, your sheet already has 6 complex numbers that lie on a spectrum not so far from that of a d20 die roll, why not use them for something?

Just have Fighters, Magic Users, and Clerics. Use roll under Stat + level. Try it out. See whether it needs more complex rules. Add them, stir. Try it. Take them out, stir. Repeat. At the very least you'll have fun!

Here's the skeleton of how I've thought of doing it:

Every level each (N)PC gets:

X or 1dX hp. Pick a flat number, or roll a die type. I'd go with whatever monster hit dice default to. These are both hit points and spell points. You use hit points to power spells, as in some OSR-ish games. Personally I like take the better of "add one dice to the existing total" and "reroll all the dice" method, since you are guaranteed to be a bit better off, but can still make up for a bad early roll. X/level is simpler though.


X number of class/character/whatever-you-want-to-call-them points.
These can be spent on:

1. A combat level. Your total combat ability is equal to the number of combat levels you buy, not your current level. I also look at this as extra dice, not +1 on the roll, e.g. 5 combat levels mean +5 dice, or 6 dice/round, which can be spent on attack, defense, initiative, damage, or special effects, rather than +5 on one roll of a die.

2. A casting level. Your total casting ability is equal to the number of casting levels you buy, not your current level.

3. A professional level, e.g. burglar, commando, ranger, knight, ratcatcher, bascially anything in WFRP or BoL. This is a bonus to rolls to do something. If you're basing rolls on stats, then add it to the relevant stat. For example, if you have 2 levels of burglar, you add 2 to dex to sneak around, 2 to cha to find a fence, 2 to str to climb a tower, 2 to wis to spot a trap, etc.
   3.1 You could optionally have some abilities set at a base check = 1/2 stat (or disadvantage), in which case the first level of profession would allow you to use it at full stat.

3.2 If so, then you could also have expertise in subskills, e.g. pick locks, that only applies to that subskill, rather than getting the full burglar profession.
4. Special abilities. Here I'm thinking of things like how Thief abilities have sometimes been described, i.e. move silently means you cannot be heard at all, hide in shadows means you are effectively invisible, etc. Essentially permanent magical effects that can be used at will in the appropriate circumstances, e.g. invisible while in shadows and not moving, leave no tracks, totally silent movement, racial abilities like flight, night vision, etc.

The various categories would then cost different amounts of points, with the proviso that it be impossible to buy both a casting level and a combat level in the same level gain.

So for example:

5 character points/level,
+1 combat level = 3 points,
+1 casting level = 4 points,
+1 professional level = 2 points, (except mage/priest/etc. that is the basis of a magical profession, which would be 1 point if you also buy a casting level, 2 otherwise)
+1 expertise = 1 point,
+1 special ability = variable, 1 for something minor like an at will non-damage cantrip (light fire, candlelight, zap mosquito, etc.), maybe more than a levels worth for really powerful abilities (e.g. permanent shape-shift), but for the most part in the 2-3 range depending on whether it seems appropriate to get one with a combat level or with a professional level.

Quote from: Larsdangly;837947I'm sure a game of that sort could work fine, though it is more complex than appeals to me. I think D&D is best suited to no skills whatsoever — just base die rolls on stats (and perhaps level, if that is not already influencing stats). I figure, your sheet already has 6 complex numbers that lie on a spectrum not so far from that of a d20 die roll, why not use them for something?

Well here is the thing.  You are trading away classes which actually simplifies the process.  Every thing with the class is already figured out with you.  Going classless means your gonna have to deal with some complexity to get the exact character that you want.

Quote from: Snowman0147;837971Well here is the thing.  You are trading away classes which actually simplifies the process.  Every thing with the class is already figured out with you.  Going classless means your gonna have to deal with some complexity to get the exact character that you want.

I don't really understand why you think that. Other than being able to cast spells, what could you possibly have a character do that isn't covered by one of their attributes? Every non-magical class ability I can think has a pretty obvious connection to one of the 6 core attributes. So, there is no need to mold the character you want - you already have him or her as soon as you define your attributes.

I don't understand why you think attributes is all you need for d20?  Even WotC had added in proficency, skills, and tools for 5th edition.  Not to mention those skills can grant class features.  I mean there is a difference between a paladin from a fighter.  There is a difference between a paladin from a cleric.  It is not just fluff, better attack roll, and divine magic.  These are things called class features.

Drawing on example ideas posted above:

Fighter: take mix of d10 and d6 plus stat increases every level, sinking stats into ST, and possibly DX or CON. Ends up good at melee combat with lots of HP

Paladin: like fighter, but devote 1 or 2 levels to d4 plus an increment of magic, devoting the magic to successive levels of cleric spells and/or the turn undead ability.

Cleric: mix of d4 plus magic and d6 plus stat increase levels, sinking stats into Wisdom and ST, and possibly Charisma, and sinking magic into turn undead and successive levels of clerical magic.

Any distinctions between what I just wrote and canonical classes are distinctions without a difference.