Quote from: Ravenswing;825915Heh, I did that in my Scarlet Pimpernel campaign.  No sooner would the League members deposit their rescuee safely in England than Le Revenant would sweep through, kidnap the poor bastard, and haul his aristo ass back to France for execution.  Got them tolerably hot under the collar ...

That would be a bad ass game with a little Tale of Two Cities  and Les Miserables tossed in.

What game system did you use, and why?

Quote from: Imperator;825966I have taught roleplaying with all kind of games. I've had newbies in Vampire, Rolemaster, D&D, RuneQuest, Star Wars, you name it. It didn't make a difference. The importance of the system is vastly overrated.

The only thing a game needs to be great for beginners is to have an enthusiastic and helpful group, specially the GM.

+1.

That said, when dealing with newbies of a less geeky bent, I gravitate towards modern-day horror scenarios, using CoC and/or nWoD. Though many specifically request D&D.

Quote from: Matt;837436That would be a bad ass game with a little Tale of Two Cities  and Les Miserables tossed in.

What game system did you use, and why?

  Didn't Ravenswing write GURPS Scarlet Pimpernel?

Quote from: Imperator;825966I have taught roleplaying with all kind of games. I've had newbies in Vampire, Rolemaster, D&D, RuneQuest, Star Wars, you name it. It didn't make a difference. The importance of the system is vastly overrated.

The only thing a game needs to be great for beginners is to have an enthusiastic and helpful group, specially the GM.

Absolutely. I've introduced new players including young teenagers and adults with Rolemaster Standard System and Hero 6e. Yikes, right? Not really.

• Get the players on board with the campaign concept
• Let them conceptualise a character that they're excited about
• Guide them through character creation
• Emphasise the drama and simple mechanics of the primary task resolution mechanic when it comes to their turn
• Don't punish them for lack of system mastery, but reward them for participating and making decisions which add to the fun. (i.e. if they do something "stupid" which is actually foolhardy according to the mechanics, but is in a good spirit, then fudge it a bit, and only later explain to them why that might not always be a good idea)

The first session is fucking crucial. Make sure that they have a good time, can participate as they wish (or sit back and watch, some players are like that) and that the other players are on the same page.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;837506Didn't Ravenswing write GURPS Scarlet Pimpernel?

How would I know? "Ravenswing."

Quote from: thedungeondelver;821556Except I don't know of anyone who actually plays T&T or promotes it.  No, really, I'm not trying to be ugly about the matter.  Aside from some noise about the collector's tin edition and the fact that it's a perennial mention by grognards, I really don't know of any promotion, mention of it, etc.

Liz Danforth was previewing the cover of the new deluxe edition on G+ yesterday.

Quote from: Phillip;825918I wouldn't recommend it for beginners, either. It's just nuts, with zip for game balance and complex maths to figure out what the heck you're doing as GM when the dice tosses actually make a difference. Ken St Andre is I gather a great storyteller who doesn't really use a rules set, but what's a beginner to do with the book then?

It works after a fashion for programmed solitaire scenarios you replay as one character after another gets killed or has a cakewalk. Some things are pretty deterministic, so you can learn from previous choices, while others are totally random.

I can kinda see what you're saying about the rules and Ken, and if you're used to other rules T&T may seem weird, but me and my friends (all aged 10) sussed it out easy enough as our introduction to the hobby. Don't agree the maths is tough. I'm rubbish at maths, but 10 year old me never had problem with T&T.

As to: "what's a beginner to do with the book then?"

Read it, it's full of great advice on GMing and plenty of great examples of how the game is played. It is actually a very well written, fun to read rule book. Then after you've read it run the introductory dungeon Trollstone Caverns.

Quote from: Weru;837758Liz Danforth was previewing the cover of the new deluxe edition on G+ yesterday.





I can kinda see what you're saying about the rules and Ken, and if you're used to other rules T&T may seem weird, but me and my friends (all aged 10) sussed it out easy enough as our introduction to the hobby. Don't agree the maths is tough. I'm rubbish at maths, but 10 year old me never had problem with T&T.

That you don't care to know the probability you're setting does not make it easy to know. If you did know, you sure weren't "rubbish at maths".

QuoteAs to: "what's a beginner to do with the book then?"

Read it, it's full of great advice on GMing and plenty of great examples of how the game is played. It is actually a very well written, fun to read rule book. Then after you've read it run the introductory dungeon Trollstone Caverns.

I know it's well written and fun to read. I know we get pages of round-by -round tallies of point adds and deductions.  I also know it gives close enough to zero advice on how to improvise the makeshifts when the tedious combat number-crunching is simply futile,  never mind more interesting "saving roll" (or ability-score comparison) situations.

That's what would really be useful: Actual help in adjudicating an adventure game. The "mechanics" have nothing to recommend them over what a bright 10-year-old can contrive.  What actually made Ken's game fun is just what's neglected.

Quote from: Phillip;837762That you don't care to know the probability you're setting does not make it easy to know. If you did know, you sure weren't "rubbish at maths".

To be honest I don't care about probability (in any game).

Quote from: Phillip;837762I know it's well written and fun to read.

Wasn't suggesting you didn't. Was just answering the question and explaining why I think it's a great intro for a beginner.

Quote from: Phillip;837762That's what would really be useful: Actual help in adjudicating an adventure game. The "mechanics" have nothing to recommend them over what a bright 10-year-old can contrive.  What actually made Ken's game fun is just what's neglected.

Well, I wasn't a bright 10 year old, and am definitely not a bright forty-something. As T&T was the first RPG I saw and played I can't imagine me and my mates contriving anything like it without seeing it first.

To be honest, as kids, we loved slinging shit loads of six-siders for round after round. The other thing is; I think the Solos taught us how to apply the SR system in more imaginative ways, and were as big a part of learning T&T, as the rulebook. That said, I still think new players would be fine just reading the rules, rolling up some characters, and having a crack at the Trollstone Caverns.

Quote from: Weru;837765To be honest I don't care about probability (in any game).

Then -- provided you have friends to play with who are likewise -- you don't need T&T or any other set of 'rules'. If outcomes might as well be purely random, then the value is the basic concept and good advice for the gm on such matters as the gm actually can be arsed to consider.

From that perspective, T&T as published in the '70s  (or now) may be adequate -- but adequate is not especially good.

QuoteWasn't suggesting you didn't. Was just answering the question and explaining why I think it's a great intro for a beginner.



Well, I wasn't a bright 10 year old, and am definitely not a bright forty-something. As T&T was the first RPG I saw and played I can't imagine me and my mates contriving anything like it without seeing it first.

To be honest, as kids, we loved slinging shit loads of six-siders for round after round. The other thing is; I think the Solos taught us how to apply the SR system in more imaginative ways, and were as big a part of learning T&T, as the rulebook. That said, I still think new players would be fine just reading the rules, rolling up some characters, and having a crack at the Trollstone Caverns.

Quote from: Phillip;837812Then -- provided you have friends to play with who are likewise -- you don't need T&T or any other set of 'rules'. If outcomes might as well be purely random, then the value is the basic concept and good advice for the gm on such matters as the gm actually can be arsed to consider.

1st level SRs are easy, 5th lvl SRs are tough. Easier if your stats are high, tougher if they're low. That's not random. It's not difficult to parse either.

Quote from: Phillip;837812From that perspective, T&T as published in the '70s  (or now) may be adequate -- but adequate is not especially good.

Adequate?  Adequate? T&T is like a tripped out Middle Earth and Marvel mash-up. That's not adequate, that's awesome.

Right now, I'm running a game for some people who have never played an RPG and I'm using Barebones Fantasy. However, I chose that because I wanted to play it, not because they did. It does have the great benefit of being short, which increases the likelihood of a player reading the rules.

I suspect that most gamers will be familiar with the concepts of most RPGs, seeing as they're built into many computer RPGs  (and of course they came from paper anyway), and the likelihood of finding someone new who has never played a CRPG is pretty remote.

In practice, I have found it doesn't matter a whole lot which RPG is the first one someone plays. If anything, D&D and GURPS are the least suitable, because of the piles of special rules spread over many volumes.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;837506Didn't Ravenswing write GURPS Scarlet Pimpernel?

Did he?  Shit, congratulations on that one, Ravenswing: it was one of the truly excellent GURPS books I remembered really enjoying.