There are so (so, so, so...) many OSR systems out there now, I was wondering whether anyone has made one that is clearly core D&D (levels, HP, AC, etc.) but has no classes.

There is clearly some kind of pressure in that direction, when you consider the common arguments against the addition of the thief and other classes in OD&D expansions. And if you are super old-school and loved gaming just with Chainmail, addition of the Cleric feels weird (the only two types of human figures in CM were the warrior/hero/superhero type and the various levels of magic user).

Another thought process that might move you this direction is to consider that the explosion of dozens and dozens of classes and multi-class rules effectively fills in the 'space' created by the half dozen core ones. That is, people have always pushed to create a version of D&D where you are more or less free to pick any imaginable mix of magical and mundane abilities.

So, it seems reasonable to me that a very 'clean' design of D&D would just give you a menu of all the known abilities (casting spells, using swords, picking locks, etc.) and you do a bit of build-a-bear.

Anyway, I've got a file of fantasy heartbreaker house rules along these lines. I recently looked back through it and was trying to remember whether I'ld ever seen anything like it elsewhere. If there is a version someone has officially put out I'ld like to see it. If not, and anyone is interested, I might clean it up and post mine.

While I don't know all the OSR systems out there and can't speak for them all, none of the over 30 I own has a classless system:). I just want through my OSR folder and checked the ones I wasn't sure about.

And yes, I agree with your reasoning that a classless system is a logical, maybe even a necessary development;).

I've never seen any examples of OSR D&D retroclones that omitted classes. Perhaps because the majority, or all of the current OSR publishers consider classes to be "clearly core D&D"?

Doesn't make much sense to me. If I wanted a near-D&D experience that provided the flexibility in chargen to create customizable characters - in your build-a-bear model - with a mixture of mundane and magical abilities free from the boundaries of classes, why wouldn't I just use one of the many skill-based systems that have come out over the past over the past 37 years? From near-D&D 70s games (like RuneQuest), to the 80s (like Stormbringer, or The Fantasy Trip).

Quote from: Larsdangly;837364So, it seems reasonable to me that a very 'clean' design of D&D would just give you a menu of all the known abilities (casting spells, using swords, picking locks, etc.) and you do a bit of build-a-bear.

Whitehack isn't literally class-less, but the interaction of classes and vocations fills some of this space.  I see in the thread you're already aware of it, but you might want to break down and check it out directly.

Added:  As far as interest goes, I'm okay with classes, so not a lot.  I would check out a build-a-bear system if it went as deep into the math of character and class abilities as ACKS did for the trade system and domain game, then came out the other side with an easy to use game where the math just happened to all work.  But short of that, I've already got my retro-clone of choice, so I'm good.

Quote from: Larsdangly;837364There are so (so, so, so...) many OSR systems out there now, I was wondering whether anyone has made one that is clearly core D&D (levels, HP, AC, etc.) but has no classes.

Searchers of the Unknown (a one page old school system) has no classes (or I guess one class that includes all adventurers. I have a variant rule for Microlite74 where everyone is one class "Adventurer". It would probably be fairly easy for me to version of Microlite74 or 81 that did not have classes, but I'd first have to know what was meant by "no classes".  Everyone one "class" would be very easy. At the other end, point buy with skills and stuff would pretty hard (and not be anything I'd really be interested in writing).

QuoteSo, it seems reasonable to me that a very 'clean' design of D&D would just give you a menu of all the known abilities (casting spells, using swords, picking locks, etc.) and you do a bit of build-a-bear.

Use Microlite20 and the Microlite20 Ultimate Fantasy rules which allows for race/class design from such elements with spells, magic items, and procedures from your favorite OSR game.

Quote from: K Peterson;837378I've never seen any examples of OSR D&D retroclones that omitted classes. Perhaps because the majority, or all of the current OSR publishers consider classes to be "clearly core D&D"?

Doesn't make much sense to me. If I wanted a near-D&D experience that provided the flexibility in chargen to create customizable characters - in your build-a-bear model - with a mixture of mundane and magical abilities free from the boundaries of classes, why wouldn't I just use one of the many skill-based systems that have come out over the past over the past 37 years? From near-D&D 70s games (like RuneQuest), to the 80s (like Stormbringer, or The Fantasy Trip).

The manifestation of this in my own house rules folder is unlike any common skill based systems, both because I wanted to make sure it was strictly compatible with all my 'real' D&D modules, monster manuals, spell books, etc., and because I wanted to vacuum out the 'cruft' that crept into D&D. Basically, all the common things you might describe as skills in a skill based system, plus all the saving throws, are handled with attribute-based rolls, and 'abilities' are just the big or weird things: spell use; ability to fight with a large group of weapons; turning undead; accelerated HP gain. It is more like a 'build a bear' menu of the usually class-based D&D isms than it is a skill system.

I understand the critique that you might as well play a skill based system. Its just that every example of such a system is incompatible with the rest of D&D, so it seems like an impractical approach if you like playing D&D style campaigns and adventures, with all that implies. I just feel like the game you play after you've stripped thieves and rangers and such out of D&D is so close to classless that you might as well take the extra step and boil it down to 0.

You're looking for kludge in all the wrong places, in D&D eyes hoping for traces of meta-system love ...

I don't think it makes much sense to dismember the game and try to patch it together as a "menu" as if everything should work smoothly without the context.  It's much better, if you want something so radically different, to build from the ground up (or start with a meta-system in the first place, such as Champions).

Hand-tailoring whatever options one wants -- a variation on a class, for instance -- gets the job done efficiently and well for those occasions when it's called for. That's why such variations proliferate!

People who don't dig the old D&D framework enough to use it move on to something else -- RuneQuest, Hero System, Rolemaster, GURPS, Pathfinder, whatever -- and get on with playing.

Other Dust seemed pretty close. Also, I would look at the back pages of Talislanta 2e (or maybe 3e, not sure) which has a roll-your-own archetype. Combine that with the already-fluid advancement system and the fact that it's rather close to old-school D&D. It may give some ideas.

EDIT: In answer to the original question, yes I would be interested. Really the key once you take out classes per se IMO is that you still have levels as the measure of hit point and attack bonus, and probably also as a standard bonus to known skills. (In Tal, depending on how you read it, the skill bonus only accrues from the point you acquire the skill, so a 5th level character who picks up Tracking and then advances a level will have Tracking 2.) Another key D&Dism is not to have defense rolls (except maybe for special maneuvers). Whether armor makes you harder to hit or absorbs damage is somewhat secondary.

Anyway, the result would be different enough from most pure skill-based games to make it worth it.

I honestly wouldn't know where to start designing a classless game without some sort of skill system. At which point I'd probably default to BRP, Storyteller or Savage Worlds.

What do you have in mind?

It's really not complicated. I am not going to run through the whole thing in a forum post, but the basic notion is:

0 level human: standard 6 stats; HP = Con/3; all common actions and saving throws are equal to d20, roll under, vs. one of the stats/2. No special abilities.

Every level, including first, just pick one ability from a menu that includes stuff like:
- + 1d6 HP
- Level 1 spells of one type (pick again for lvl 2 spells of that type, etc.)
- Tracking
- Pick locks
- Sneaking
- Fighting with one broad category of weapons (swords, etc.)
- Turn undead

Any ability that is resolved as a skill or saving throw just lets you add your level to your success chance (e.g., pick locks would be DX/2 + LVL instead of DX/2 as for everyone else).

Only kludgy thing are attacks, which need a special modifier to make them work out to have average odds like other versions of D&D (e.g., melee attack = ST/2 + (AC-5) + lvl if you have a relevant ability).

That's pretty much it. All the monsters, spells and items are from core D&D. There is a table for converting standard saving throw types to stat rolls, but that is pretty obvious. Success chances are a bit different for some actions at some levels, but overall it is a lot like core B/X D&D in power level and so forth.

So, you've prototyped a new game with bits from the old somewhat arbitrarily jammed in. Now begins the process called "development," to make it all coherent and balanced in the new scheme.

Maybe 40 years from now, someone else will be hacking your game!

Quote from: Phillip;837405So, you've prototyped a new game with bits from the old somewhat arbitrarily jammed in. Now begins the process called "development," to make it all coherent and balanced in the new scheme.

Maybe 40 years from now, someone else will be hacking your game!

Maybe! Though, honestly, I don't have such a grandiose view of my little house rules. A close reading of OD&D and various osr pastiches will show you nearly everything has been tried on for size; sometimes 'officially' and sometimes unofficially. I would say the notion of stat based rolls is a lot less radical than the 'alternate combat system' added part way through OD&D. And going from 2 classes in chainmail to 1 class in my fantasy hearbreaker is less of a big deal than the expansion from 2 to dozens of classes that happened in the 70's. Whenever a game looks and smells like D&D at the table, I call it D&D with a few house rules. That's what I think my little rules set is.

I've thought about turning Dark Passages three into a very minimalist skill system.  Fighting, Shooting, Magic, and Crafts including woodcraft and skullduggery.  Experience doubling would be shifted to the skill : challenge axis making 1000xp per level standard all the way up.

The levels would give bonuses to actions and results just like stats so you would have +5 to hit and damage with fighting or shooting level 10.  Of course you'd still be able to shift any to hit bonus to AC or split it between multiple attacks as usual.

At tenth level you could learn and cast fifth level spells.  But I think I'd allow preparation of level + Intelligence or Wisdom bonus spell levels.

Hit Dice would be an interesting question, they're already Size based but I'd probably make a die type boost standard for Fighting and a downshift standard for magic.  Only the highest skill level would gain a hit dice.  Going Fighting 4 Magic 3 wouldn't get you 7 HD.

On the other hand the OSR field is really crowded and I have other projects that interest me more.  If I had the money to manufacture a couple sprues of plastic miniatures I might get back to it but with Cryptowall 3 eating my files I've had to start from scratch and I'm finding it oddly liberating.  Re-writing Galaxies in Shadow from scratch right now.  Which puts Dark Passages on the back burner for now.

Mutant Future (and by extension Gamma World 1st) is classless unless you consider "mutant," "pure strain human," "Android," etc. classes.

Quote from: Larsdangly;837396Every level, including first, just pick one ability from a menu that includes stuff like:
- + 1d6 HP
- Level 1 spells of one type (pick again for lvl 2 spells of that type, etc.)
- Tracking
- Pick locks
- Sneaking
- Fighting with one broad category of weapons (swords, etc.)
- Turn undead

Not all of these abilities are of equal value.
Maybe group abilities into major abilities and minor abilities, then let players choose one major ability or a couple of minor abilities.