5ed's Passive Perception

I find it pointless. I think I understand it, but if it were a choice of using PP or a pre-determined bunch of d20 rolls to check off in secret, I'd much rather go with the latter.

Walking down a corridor, the pc in front spots a trap (DC 12) with his PP 13. Automatic finds on some traps? It sort of makes placing traps, and more to the point, giving them DCs silly. So they won't spot all traps, true, but they will spot the traps they do spot; automatically. That's the part I can't parse. There's a disconnect somewhere.

What am I missing?

PP is what happens when the players aren't actively searching or for the DM to roll against to keep from spoiling surprise.

If the players are actively searching a room they would roll to find traps. If they are walking down a hallway and not looking for danger they would only notice the trap if their PP was high enough.

To keep players from knowing that there is a hiding monster when they aren't actively looking the DM can roll the monster's Hide roll and compare it to PP.

It is simply a way to reduce the number of rolls and to provide a target for the DM to resolve without the player's knowledge.

Quote from: Scutter;8363025ed's Passive Perception

I find it pointless. I think I understand it, but if it were a choice of using PP or a pre-determined bunch of d20 rolls to check off in secret, I'd much rather go with the latter.

As snoogums points out, one of the uses of passive perception is to reduce rolling and keep things on the down low.  If you don't mind that, or have an alternative system you like (such as the pre-rolled list you mention), then that works.

Quote from: Scutter;836302Walking down a corridor, the pc in front spots a trap (DC 12) with his PP 13. Automatic finds on some traps? It sort of makes placing traps, and more to the point, giving them DCs silly. So they won't spot all traps, true, but they will spot the traps they do spot; automatically. That's the part I can't parse. There's a disconnect somewhere.

What am I missing?

It's unclear to me how giving a trap in DC is silly in this context.  The DC still sets the bar whether you're using passive perception or not.   Some traps they do spot will not be traps they would have automatically spotted. Passive perception checks aren't generally in lieu of active perception checks.

In your example, let's say 13 is the highest PP in the group. The saw your DC 12 trap, and then disarmed it. And now they come across a trap that has a spot DC of 14.  They don't automatically notice it. Are they cagey after discovering the first trap, or do they walk blithely on? If the latter, then the trap is sprung.  If they decided to explicitly look around, then a perception roll is made against that DC.  Some DMs roll that for the players so they don't know if they rolled high or low, some let the players roll. Some choose to use a group/assisted roll, some don't.

Some DMs will assign a different DC for passive and active perceptions checks, depending on the situation.  I think I've heard that this has been done in one of the official 5e adventures, but I've only read Phandelver and I don't recall seeing it done in there.

This situation, along with stealth, is an area where there's some intentional vagueness for latitude.  Adjust to taste.

Thanks for the feedback

I think I'm more narked with the automatic detection part. It's too binary

Quote from: Scutter;836317Thanks for the feedback

I think I'm more narked with the automatic detection part. It's too binary

Personally I have the 'Trap' make a stealth check to represent how well its creator did at hiding it combined with how favorable the current circumstances are. It's a bit of an abstraction but I prefer it to automatic detection or having the player's roll.

As an example. In one of the 5e modules there is a passive 15 (perception) chance to notice a door is different from the rest the PCs have encountered. Me and Jannet haven't a chance. Kefra though makes it at her current level. But say back when she was level 5, she would have just bare made it.

Another example is a Gray Ooze hiding. Its a Dex (Stealth) check vs our passive perception. Say the ooze rolls a 2. Adding its stealth bonus of +2 that means we all spot it. But if it had rolled a 17 then none of us would have spotted it hiding at level 5. But Kefra could at her current level.

Its essentially to cover casual things that you do not want to tip the PCs off to its presence if they fail. And saves time. Some stuff you are just going to notice when walking along and on general alertness.

Quote from: Scutter;836317Thanks for the feedback

I think I'm more narked with the automatic detection part. It's too binary

Uh have you looked at most of the mechanics in D&D?  All editions?

The most noticeable:  AC is binary.  You hit or you don't.  Done.  And you can add Saving Throws, as well.  And that's been the basis of the system for almost 41 years now.

Sorry, but for ME, that statement is just silly.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;836325Uh have you looked at most of the mechanics in D&D?  All editions?

The most noticeable:  AC is binary.  You hit or you don't.  Done.  And you can add Saving Throws, as well.  And that's been the basis of the system for almost 41 years now.

Sorry, but for ME, that statement is just silly.

I hear what you are saying and second it.  Almost all results in D&D boil down to yes or no.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836313I think I've heard that this has been done in one of the official 5e adventures, but I've only read Phandelver and I don't recall seeing it done in there.

In LMoP in Cragmaw Castle there's a tripwire trap with a passive DC of 20, but an active DC of 15. Or maybe it was 10. Either way if they just waltz near it they are never going to notice with passive perception.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;836334In LMoP in Cragmaw Castle there's a tripwire trap with a passive DC of 20, but an active DC of 15. Or maybe it was 10. Either way if they just waltz near it they are never going to notice with passive perception.

Kefra's passive perception just hit 19. Compared to my 8 and Jan's 7. But in a couple of her animal forms Kefra's perception was equal or better till she hit level 10.  Guess who gets point?

I like a system where one side rolls more than a system where both sides roll - but generally I want at least one roll. So I like passive perception 4E style (despite generally hating 4E), but 5E was a bit too far.
Binary is kind of the wrong word for it since its not actually a yes/no its 'Always Yes' or 'Always No'. The equivalent of always hitting AC 17 because your attack is +7.
I'd probably go with 'deterministic'.

IMC I've just been rolling checks for the PCs when they might spot something, usually 1 check vs the point man's Perception, with a fairly low DC. Seems to work. I don't like Passive Per's automatic success vs fixed DCs; it's ok if used as a target number vs a monster stealth roll.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;836325Uh have you looked at most of the mechanics in D&D?  All editions?

The most noticeable:  AC is binary.  You hit or you don't.  Done.  And you can add Saving Throws, as well.  And that's been the basis of the system for almost 41 years now.

Sorry, but for ME, that statement is just silly.

It's a roll that's too binary wherein players don't have to roll for it either. The two instances don't sit well with me.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;836334In LMoP in Cragmaw Castle there's a tripwire trap with a passive DC of 20, but an active DC of 15. Or maybe it was 10. Either way if they just waltz near it they are never going to notice with passive perception.

So what was the point in giving it a DC of 20 in the first place if nobody at the table had a chance to spot it?

Quote from: Scutter;836355It's a roll that's too binary wherein players don't have to roll for it either. The two instances don't sit well with me.

In 5e it is mostly used for things that can be casually spotted while walking along. IE: A basic open pit trap is a passive DC 10. But a concealed pit trap is an active perception of 15.

It speeds things along and allows the DM some options. As a DM I think it is ok. I use it sparingly for mostly casual spot stuff. As a player its funny as the DM we are gaming with looooves traps. But Jan and myself have abysmal passive perception so we would walk into even the unconcealed pits probably if Kefra were not handling the passive trap detection.