Rather than start a new thread, I'll ask here.
Is there a 5e slipcase with all three books?

It is perhaps ironic that highest level of OSR purity would be to omit the Thief class completely ... thus necessitating the introduction of a more general, universal set of mechanics for handling the sorts of things thieves do. I actually suspect the best version of D&D would be one that treats PC's just as in Chainmail: either you are a hero (fighter, thief, ranger, paladin, etc.) or a magician (wizard, cleric, etc.).

I wouldn't go that far, but defining a standard list of adventuring skills that everybody defaults to would be a good direction to go. I think that's in LotFP. The BRP list of skills (most iterations/variants of BRP) would also be a good place to start. Possibly Talislanta 2e-3e, which is similar to D&D in many ways but makes the relationship between class (archetype) and skill more fluid, while having an explicit rule for untrained skill use.

Quote from: Larsdangly;833216It is perhaps ironic that highest level of OSR purity would be to omit the Thief class completely ... thus necessitating the introduction of a more general, universal set of mechanics for handling the sorts of things thieves do.

FOR ME, my favorite OSR moment when I understood why Swords & Wizardry: White Box did not have Thief class and it clicked so wonderfully for me.

For years now my OD&D game has had 3 classes - Cleric, Fighter, Mage - and it has done my gaming so much good. It has been so much fun at the table for the players to work around the idea that they are as much rogue as they want to be.

That said, I love to play Thieves in other RPGs and other D&D editions, but for my OD&D play, the "loss" of the Thief has only been a tremendous gain.

 

Quote from: Larsdangly;833216I actually suspect the best version of D&D would be one that treats PC's just as in Chainmail: either you are a hero (fighter, thief, ranger, paladin, etc.) or a magician (wizard, cleric, etc.).

That's Tunnels & Trolls! You are a Warrior or a Wizard and it works great.

So, when you play OD&D without the Thief class, what do you do when someone says they tip toe past a guard or try to jimmy a lock?

I rather like the way sneaky stuff is handled in Searchers of the Unknown. The way you determine if you hit is to try to roll equal to or under your level + your opponent's AC, using a d20. So if you're 1st level and your opponent is AC 5, you need to roll 6- to hit.

The twist is that if you want to try something acrobatic or stealthy or anything along those lines (there are no thieves), you have to roll equal to or under your level + your own AC.

Since SotU uses descending AC, that means plate you makes hard to hit, but poor at sneaking around. And it explains why barbarians wear clunky armor on the battlefield, but go oiled and barechested when they're trying to sneak into a temple and steal the gems out of giant idol's eye sockets.

Quote from: Pat;833259I rather like the way sneaky stuff is handled in Searchers of the Unknown. The way you determine if you hit is to try to roll equal to or under your level + your opponent's AC, using a d20. So if you're 1st level and your opponent is AC 5, you need to roll 6- to hit.

The twist is that if you want to try something acrobatic or stealthy or anything along those lines (there are no thieves), you have to roll equal to or under your level + your own AC.

Since SotU uses descending AC, that means plate you makes hard to hit, but poor at sneaking around. And it explains why barbarians wear clunky armor on the battlefield, but go oiled and barechested when they're trying to sneak into a temple and steal the gems out of giant idol's eye sockets.

Interesting. That's a great system, particularly if you are running a super-light game (little or no classes, stats, special abilities, etc.). I can imagine this as a little tweak on Chainmail that would let you run it more or less as a standard roleplaying game.

Quote from: Larsdangly;833248So, when you play OD&D without the Thief class, what do you do when someone says they tip toe past a guard or try to jimmy a lock?

Same as in AD&D when a non-Thief tries to tiptoe past guard or jimmy lock.

In my case - I would typically give a chance equal to Surprise chance to tiptoe past guard (a Thief of course would get this in addition to MS%), while a non-Thief would have no chance to pick a regular lock, it's not something most PCs would have any idea how to do.

Quote from: Larsdangly;833248So, when you play OD&D without the Thief class, what do you do when someone says they tip toe past a guard or try to jimmy a lock?

Surprise roll and Open Doors roll, respectively.

Most of the thief abilities could be covered by surprise. You could let characters who opt for training in lock picking use an Open Doors roll without physical force. If you base Open Doors on Strength normally (I don't,) you  could substitute Dex for those with training. I assume anyone who buys thieves picks during character creation has lockpick training.

Quote from: Larsdangly;833172Two separate rolls that use different mechanics and are described in different parts of the rules and don't actually refer to each other.

ACKS explicitly refers to thief skills in the paragraph following the one I quoted from previously.  I just edited it aggressively because I didn't want to be quoting multiple full paragraphs.

Quote from: Raven;833199Acks doesn't portray Move Silently and Hide in Shadows as fallback skills for when regular sneaking fails; instead a thief can use them straightaway to bypass the regular sneak rules.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other.  The final odds are the same regardless of which roll you make first.  The main point is that, if you're a Thief with 15% Move Silently, that does not mean that you have an 85% chance of monsters hearing you.  But I do agree with Larsdangly that it would be better (and more transparent) if this were combined into a single roll that thieves have a better chance on rather than a "anyone trying to be quiet" roll and a separate "additional chance for thieves to be quiet" roll.

Another system to mention here is Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.  ASSH changes all thief skills from percentile to d12 rolls (with a +1 on the roll for 16+ in an appropriate stat). Since we're talking here mostly about Hide and Move Silently, both of those start at a 5/12 chance (6/12 (50/50) with 16+ Dex).

Quote from: Larsdangly;832992- Genuinely compatible with most or all pre-3E and modern OSR materials (i.e., it is D&D, not a separate game inspired by D&D). For example, DCC is awesome, but really doesn't fit this criterion.

You might want to give my Majestic Wilderlands combined with Swords & Wizardry Core Rules a try.

Quote from: Larsdangly;832992- Thief abilities start at first level at a level of competency more similar to other things in the game (e.g., the ~50:50 odds of most people's attacks in combat).

In MW I use an ability system. In general I recommend setting the base chance at a 15 or better. Characters start out at a +1 or +2 in a ability. For example Fighters and Athletics. To that they add their attribute modifiers which can range from +0 to +3. Assuming of course we are talking an ability 12 or higher. I don't use the +1 for every 2 points of attributes, I use +1 for every three point of attributes starting at 12.

So a burglar, will have probably have a +2 from dex, +2 from his class so will need a 11 or better to pick an average lock.

Quote from: Larsdangly;832992- There is some sort of central task resolution rule or rules, so it is obvious how you are supposed to resolve things other than combat or class-specific abilities.

Again I have a ability system. I don't call it a skill system because any character can attempt any task just some are better at certain task than others. For example a fighter can pick locks, a burglar can do research, a magic user can try to bend bars. But a fighter is best at Athletic, a burglar at opening locks, a magic user at doing research. It all based on a d20 roll high. It not detailed or complicated from the feedback I got people seem to "get it" and were able to use it.

Quote from: Larsdangly;832992- Your stats significantly impact your abilities.

I use +1 per 3 point of attribute starting at 12. More than bog standard OD&D/Swords & Wizardry, less than d20.

Quote from: Larsdangly;833248So, when you play OD&D without the Thief class, what do you do when someone says they tip toe past a guard or try to jimmy a lock?

There are several ways

1) You, the referee, know how the lock is laid out and the players have to figure it out based on describing how they examine it and you describing what they fine.

2) Roll a d20 equal to or under an attribute, probably dex in this case. Keeping in mind that 1st level means the character is a VETERAN warrior/magic-user/cleric.

3) Multiply the attribute by 5 and rolling percentile dice under that number.

4) Or you think 1st level are incompetents or intensely dislike roll play and have the characters roll percentage dice equal or under their attribute. For example a 17 dex means the player has a 17% chance of success. Variants include adding the character level or five time the character level.

Theses are some of the methods I know about how people dealt with it back in the day. For the most part the thief class and then slightly later Runequest steered everybody into thinking that skill systems were the way to go.

I always thought it would have been simplest if the Thief class was simply given a progressively increasing bonus at the standard d6 die rolls for surprise and spotting secret doors and traps, following exactly the same progression as their bonus to listen. You could pretty much do the same thing with opening doors and removing traps, just saying it follows the 'open doors' rules, but a thief gets a bonus for DX rather than the fighter's bonus for ST. The odds would be not so different, and it would cut out a whole sub system of rules.

Quote from: nDervish;833317Six of one, half-dozen of the other.  The final odds are the same regardless of which roll you make first.  

Not if you follow the procedure properly and attempt thief skills first. If successful those percentages you listed (surprise/hear noise) never enter play.

QuoteThe main point is that, if you're a Thief with 15% Move Silently, that does not mean that you have an 85% chance of monsters hearing you.

Truth and looking back it sucks how long I treated it as exactly that. Learning the actual intent behind stealth/surprise was one of those great revelations for me, right alongside the effect morale and reaction rolls (aka all the rules I ignored in my youth) had on the game.

Well, yes, but D&D wasn't engineered to begin with.

Rob's approach makes eminent sense and is I think somewhat similar to Tal and LotFP (if I remember correctly). In fact isn't this pretty much how 5e works--you get a base chance plus ability modifier, but you only get your proficiency bonus (which increases by level) on stuff you're trained in?

There are other problems with Thief skills and I don't think there are universal answers:

--How to handle opposed tasks (stealth including hide, sneak, pick pockets; also listen at doors)

--How to handle repeated attempts/attempts by multiple people (pick lock)

--How to handle degree of success/failure (chiefly climb--what exactly does a failure mean?)