How important is magic to a world setting in your opinion?

Specifically when it is not a fantasy setting.  Such as post apocalyptic, space opera, steam punk, ect...

If it's not a fantasy world, then magic isn't important at all, IMO.

By "fantasy" here I mean something in the sword & sorcery tradition, or elf-dwarf-orc fantasy. I'd also include games based on things like Arthurian romance, or some varieties of Wuxia. Magic is natural in those, if not integral and necessary.

As you expand out from those core fantasy genres, magic becomes less important and more optional. Depending on your taste, it may even be preferable to exclude it. For example I'm not very keen on the idea of making magic central to a pirate game, so Chaosium's Blood Tide doesn't appeal to me at first glance even though it combines two things I like very much (pirates and d100).

Funny question, because it's often magic that makes a setting "fantasy" to me. Though most horror in RPGs is also supernatural in nature.

So I feel magic is "in genre" for those two, and adding it to any other genre in principle makes it "cross-genre" — e.g. Castle Falkenstein is steampunk fantasy, Deadlands is a horror (or fantasy) Western, Rifts is post-apocalyptic fantasy and horror (fuck it, what is it that Rifts isn't).

A special case is psionics in SF. Psionics is often treated as magic In all but name, and its inclusion is absolutely in genre for "soft" SF. Though just how "soft" depends on the prevalence and magnitude of psionics — Star Wars feels softer than Third Imperium Traveller which feels softer than Eclipse Phase — but as long as people are working hocus pocus with their brains it's all "soft" SF to me.

'Fantasy' encompasses a whole lot more than just the standard dwarves/elves/orcs thing.
Any setting with functional magic (by whatever name) in it is fantasy IMO... but it's not a requirement. Most zombie apocalypse stories are fantasy, as are most musicals, a lot of space opera, anything with 'superheroes' (most any modern action movie)... etc.

Quote from: rway218;832011How important is magic to a world setting in your opinion?

Specifically when it is not a fantasy setting.  Such as post apocalyptic, space opera, steam punk, ect...

It's never so important as to require more than one question mark.

But, seriously... By "important" do you mean "necessary" or something else?

Quote from: Simlasa;832047'Fantasy' encompasses a whole lot more than just the standard dwarves/elves/orcs thing.
Any setting with functional magic (by whatever name) in it is fantasy IMO... but it's not a requirement. Most zombie apocalypse stories are fantasy, as are most musicals, a lot of space opera, anything with 'superheroes' (most any modern action movie)... etc.

Indeed. Magic can pervasive and passive where it can largely incidental (e.g. a setting with islands in the clouds), or less incidental (e.g. an eternal zombie virus).  Or it can be Sauron v Baggins,  or Harry Dresden. Or Lensmen & Jedi. Or Walking Dead. Or maybe it's just One Hundred Years of Solitude.

So, ramble abridged.  Not sure of exactly what you are asking.

Yeah, I was being careful to qualify "fantasy" since OP left a fair amount of grey area. If you believe that magic always implies fantasy, then the question doesn't parse.

To go with the specific examples: magic isn't necessary at all for space opera, steam punk, or post-apocalyptic settings, even though there are good examples of magic in each. (Star Wars, Castle Falkenstein--well, I'm not crazy about it but it's more the system and some setting details than the overall vision--and for the last you could take your pick of The Dying Earth or Thundarr the Barbarian.)

I think it's definitely a player expectation, due to the generally shared connotation of the word. But I'd be cool without it, if it came to that. My own druthers on magic is that it is rare and dangerous, though most games I run don't treat it that way at all. But I digress--I'd say it's essential, because I tend to GM more than play, and because I always have players that want to use some form of magic.  I don't play enough non-fantasy to compare, otherwise. Seems like most other settings have something "paranormal" so "magic" is there, too.

Quote from: Arminius;832120If you believe that magic always implies fantasy, then the question doesn't parse.

I'm trying think of a setting that has magic that I don't see as fantasy... but none come to mind... unless it's one of those 'sufficiently advanced' setups.
I can certainly think of fantasy settings that don't have anyone casting spells though... or anything overtly constructed by magic.

Quote from: Simlasa;832137I'm trying think of a setting that has magic that I don't see as fantasy... but none come to mind...

Superhero settings I tend to see primarily as superhero settings, but the inclusion of magic is almost expected. And I still think of Shadowrun as cyberpunk with fantasy elements rather than fantasy with cyberpunk elements, no matter what Gibson says.

Depends on the setting.

Magic in say Star Wars, Star Trek, Traveller, Star Frontiers, etc would seem very out of place, (Despite there being two magic themed episodes in ST).

But magiteck settings are very common now thanks to anime series that took the idea and ran with it. Prime one that comes to mind is Aura Battler Dunbine. But there are plenty of others.

Note that I do not consider psi or superscience to be magic.

Some superhero settings allow magic. Some do not. But that is another example of where magic can work.

Some Post-Apoc settings allow for magic too. Sometimes it works. Other times its psi powers or mutations disguised as magic or even superscience posing as magic.

Mixing magic and science can be interesting. Or a disaster if done poorly.

Shadowrun comes to mind as a near perfect mix of magic and tech. Torg's Cyberpapacy is another. Also the TSR Shadows of the Comet boxed module comes to mind for a blending of the two with magic meets science.

Highly important, in that the presence or absence of magic and, if it is present, the form that it takes, is a major factor in defining a setting.  If the setting has been thought through, then magic is also a major factor in shaping it, but this level of thought seems to be rarely applied - far more often we get "just like the real world, but with magic that could change everything, even though it hasn't".

But it's not important that all settings must have magic, if that's what you meant.  "No magic" is just as valid (and just as defining) an option as "magic".

Quote from: Omega;832148Magic in say Star Wars, Star Trek, Traveller, Star Frontiers, etc would seem very out of place, (Despite there being two magic themed episodes in ST).

I don't know Star Frontiers well but Star Wars, Star Trek and Traveller all have magic in the form of psychic powers.

Quote from: Simlasa;832137I'm trying think of a setting that has magic that I don't see as fantasy... but none come to mind... unless it's one of those 'sufficiently advanced' setups.
I can certainly think of fantasy settings that don't have anyone casting spells though... or anything overtly constructed by magic.

Yeah, pretty much the way I look at it.

   If you have magic, then your setting is fantasy.

If your setting is fantasy, it may (or may not) include magic.

Quote from: Simlasa;832184I don't know Star Frontiers well but Star Wars, Star Trek and Traveller all have magic in the form of psychic powers.

Generally psychic powers in Sci-Fi tend to be explainable, understandable, predictable, and repeatable in a...well a scientific way.* Psi powers generally don't require candles, incense, spell components, magical foci, elaborate rituals, hand gestures, or chants. If there is a "magic wand" there isn't anything magical about, its really a psi enhancer or some such. And a scientist or engineer who may well have no psychic ability whatsoever probably designed the McGuffin - unlike magical doo dads which are either made by a wizard or have some other supernatural explanation.

The difference seems to be that magic is supernatural in origin or effect and psi powers are natural.

Granted from a RPG rules perspective, magic almost always is written down, understandable, predictable, and repeatable. In fiction usually less so. But the two definitely feel differently to me even though the border is a bit fuzzy.

So to answer the question, No. Because magic without the setting being fantasy is an oxymoron.



* One thing a number of Star Wars fans disliked about the midichlorians in Phantom Menace was the move towards a sciency, easily measurable explanation for the Force. For them the Force was supernatural and giving a natural explanation shifted the genre in a way they found unattractive.

Quote from: Bren;832187* One thing a number of Star Wars fans disliked about the midichlorians in Phantom Menace was the move towards a sciency, easily measurable explanation for the Force. For them the Force was supernatural and giving a natural explanation shifted the genre in a way they found unattractive.

For me midichlorians were just another level of bullshit to justify the superpowers... just as much fantasy as leaving it at 'The Force'.
The folks I know who believe in real life 'magic' believe it's part of nature as well... part of how the universe functions... they'll talk about research and experiments and 'laws'.
Anyway, put to fine a line on any genre and the whole classification starts falling apart... 'horror' is it a genre? Or is it an element that gets injected into other genres? Fantasy often seems the same... all is true to life until someone bursts into song and music comes out of nowhere.

Quote from: Simlasa;832190For me midichlorians were just another level of bullshit to justify the superpowers... just as much fantasy as leaving it at 'The Force'.
The folks I know who believe in real life 'magic' believe it's part of nature as well... part of how the universe functions... they'll talk about research and experiments and 'laws'.
Anyway, put to fine a line on any genre and the whole classification starts falling apart... 'horror' is it a genre? Or is it an element that gets injected into other genres? Fantasy often seems the same... all is true to life until someone bursts into song and music comes out of nowhere.

Methinks someone hath been watching too many Bollywood pics.