Players usually want abilities with mechanical heft because it's something guaranteed to work. Being creative without it takes more energy and effort, and they don't know how effective it will be. Meanwhile they have abilities spelled out to exact specifications on their character sheet. Eventually they might stop looking outside of those abilities altogether.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;831226Players usually want abilities with mechanical heft because it's something guaranteed to work. Being creative without it takes more energy and effort, and they don't know how effective it will be. Meanwhile they have abilities spelled out to exact specifications on their character sheet. Eventually they might stop looking outside of those abilities altogether.

To build on this..I suppose it might be useful to take a step back and figure out what's making them tick. This actually nails one of the major things: players who are interested in the 'game' element of the roleplaying game tend to want to exploit existing rules to beat the system. Some of them maybe just don't like failing (taking the risk to figure out whether the GM is likely to shoot down an idea). Some of them just aren't that creative - which is to say, when you give them a problem they try and solve it by translating it to game mechanics to get the solution, instead of putting themselves into the situation as their character. A number of them have an active feeling of revulsion at the idea that GM interpretation should be involved; there's a feeling that a solution thats not directly from the rules is cheating somehow.

The other thing that maybe a factor is that a lot of the newer games are fairly high-powered compared to older ones. A higher power level often goes with more detailed rules, as in 4E, because once you leave reality behind people stop being able to agree on what's reasonable for a character to do without them. So not liking low-powered games is tied into it somehow as well.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;831213To clarify, it's not about playing supermen, it's about distinctive mechanical crunch. D&D's Sneak Attack is a perfectly mundane thing in the gameworld's fiction, but still qualifies as "kool powerz" because it has been sectioned off and complexified for a certain class to feel special.

As for the media based-pitch, I did try. I used Firefly to pitch Traveller and Stars Without Number. No sale.

By the way, I do want to thank everyone who has posted in this thread, it has been very interesting and thought provoking.

Glad to pitch in, I've had a lot of good gaming advice from this board.

If they like crunchy mechanics but aren't insistent on superheroic character abilities, it does sound like they appreciate the crunch for itself, for being well-defined, and easily understood when compared to predicting how the DM will adjudicate things.  They offer surety, a written contract of what they'll be able to do in the setting (people in our world often being very cruel about what they promise and deliver).

Get an accomplice, someone who isn't a best friend or wife or such, but who agrees with you on the idea of less crunchy mechanics having merit, or is at least not hostile to it.  Run a game that permits both high crunch and low crunch characters, in which your accomplice plays a low crunch character, and throughout that game demonstrate that such a character can be fun to play, and that the lack of well-defined crunchy abilities does not restrict them but can enable them, and does not wedge them into a bad bargaining position where they ask for a lot and get little.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;831213As for the media based-pitch, I did try. I used Firefly to pitch Traveller and Stars Without Number. No sale.

Please say this was not your pitch, but rather, you are just truncating things because this is a message board and not an essay.  Because this pitch is fucking terrible.  It does nothing whatsoever to engender interest.  

Pictures, dude.  A few minutes on google images to get the right feel works wonders.  Describe the exciting things you anticipate to be doing in the game.

Quote from: Old One Eye;831319Please say this was not your pitch, but rather, you are just truncating things because this is a message board and not an essay.  Because this pitch is fucking terrible.  It does nothing whatsoever to engender interest.  

Pictures, dude.  A few minutes on google images to get the right feel works wonders.  Describe the exciting things you anticipate to be doing in the game.

Don't worry, I pitched Traveller a few times before I even saw Firefly (years after it came out). I figured it would be a good tactic because Firefly has a lot of cred in my circles.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;831347Don't worry, I pitched Traveller a few times before I even saw Firefly (years after it came out). I figured it would be a good tactic because Firefly has a lot of cred in my circles.

Traveler is not the pitch unless the players are already stoked to try out Traveler before you try the pitch.  You do not sale the system, you sell the dream.  Traveler is merely the vehicle to get to the dream once they are slavering for it.

Here is an analogy.  Part of my day job is to work with the mortgage industry.  A mortgage loan officer gets paid commission for selling mortgage loans.  You will starve as a mortgage loan officer if your pitch consists of the terms of the mortgage loan.  You hook the customer by selling them the dream of owning a home.  You have them imaging getting the keys and becoming master of their own domain.  You talk about the home the realtor showed them, you discuss what they plan to do with each room, how they want the yard, etc.  Only after they WANT that home do you get into the nitty gritty of 4.5% interest, 5% down, etc.

When you pitch a new campaign idea, you are a salesperson.  Sell the dream.  Once they are hooked, they will play even if the specifics of 2d6+skill vs DC8 does not sound exciting.  Then run a damn good game to prove the dream is real.

Do this a couple times, and your group will trust you.  They will be willing to try whatever because your game is that damn good.

But if you focus on mechanical specifics ... well ... tell me how many people you know who purchased a new car because of torc ratio rather than how it looks.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;831213To clarify, it's not about playing supermen, it's about distinctive mechanical crunch. D&D's Sneak Attack is a perfectly mundane thing in the gameworld's fiction, but still qualifies as "kool powerz" because it has been sectioned off and complexified for a certain class to feel special.

I know I said I was going to step out, and frankly, I'm not going to suggest anything, but the Bold part?  That is literally every single spell in a D&D styled game.  Every single spell is a separate rules block that has it's own unique abilities and doesn't interact with the base game, in any way.  So by allowing spells in D&D, you're allowing Kool Powerz.

What makes them different?  The fact that the DM (in some editions) is the one who gives them out?  Or something else that makes them "OK"?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;831356I know I said I was going to step out, and frankly, I'm not going to suggest anything, but the Bold part?  That is literally every single spell in a D&D styled game.

*mumblemumble* D&D should have had a more freeform magic system (such as noun-verb) that relies on DM judgment and player skill/creativity. The spell lists don't fit with everything I think is most-right with OD&D.

Quote from: Old One Eye;831354But if you focus on mechanical specifics ... well ... tell me how many people you know who purchased a new car because of torc ratio rather than how it looks.

That's a bad analogy because...  Actually no, it's a good one, but it defeats your point.  See, torc power may not be on their minds, but horsepower, top speed, 0-60 in how many seconds.  Or if not going for a sports car, you sell them how many people it seats, how safe it is, how much mileage per gallon of gas.

All those are mechanical bits (Kool Powerz) that look past how neat the car looks, is what a lot of people look for, they WANT to know how a car performs, because if it looks pretty, but doesn't go very far, or guzzles gas like your favourite slurpie on a hot day, then people will feel like they've been ripped off.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;831360That's a bad analogy because...  Actually no, it's a good one, but it defeats your point.  See, torc power may not be on their minds, but horsepower, top speed, 0-60 in how many seconds.  Or if not going for a sports car, you sell them how many people it seats, how safe it is, how much mileage per gallon of gas.

All those are mechanical bits (Kool Powerz) that look past how neat the car looks, is what a lot of people look for, they WANT to know how a car performs, because if it looks pretty, but doesn't go very far, or guzzles gas like your favourite slurpie on a hot day, then people will feel like they've been ripped off.

I'd just like to say that I'm currently looking at new cars and my wife and I are on completely different sides of the situation. I AM looking at torc, horse-power, NHTSA safety ratings, seating, air-bags, MPG, as well as 0-60, stopping, wheel diameter, features, and trim. My wife, on the other hand, can say if she wants or doesn't want a car just on how it looks. And all of that stuff that's important to me, minus safety and maybe AWD capability, is stuff she feels I shouldn't be concerned about.

Personally speaking, I think I'm going into it with a LOT more knowledge and will most likely pick a better vehicle than what she'd go into with and get swindled with purchasing. What is so funny is how deep one's commitment to a dealership or vehicle brand one can be. My wife swears by Subaru and insists that they can and will run forever and a comparable vehicle in both mileage, body, size, and price is automatically worse. I find that ridiculously frustrating.


So....I'm not sure what this has to actually do with the thread of players losing or not using Kool Powerz but I saw cars being brought up and my current vehicle situation sort of relevant.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;831356I know I said I was going to step out, and frankly, I'm not going to suggest anything, but the Bold part?  That is literally every single spell in a D&D styled game.  Every single spell is a separate rules block that has it's own unique abilities and doesn't interact with the base game, in any way.  So by allowing spells in D&D, you're allowing Kool Powerz.

What makes them different?  The fact that the DM (in some editions) is the one who gives them out?  Or something else that makes them "OK"?

I totally agree. Player Agency, a term often that refers to specialized stuff a player has complete control over, has often been only the purview of spellcasters in pre-3E D&D. With the advent of Feats and the continuation of things like Maneuvers (3e, 5e, and Pathfinder) and re-newable exploits (4e) it's given more agency to a far larger number of character classes. What was originally 1 person making the "what should I use now....?" is now the entire table. I'm not sure why that's a bad thing, but apparently it is.

I have a question though, why do you want players to rely less on Kool Powerz? It wasn't really mentioned in the OP so I thought I'd ask for better clarification. Are they getting in the way of improv? Can they be used in conjunction with improv (Lord knows I do this a LOT in 3.5, 4E, 5E, and PF)? What do you hope to accomplish by having players rely less on their mechanical abilities and more on their own personal knowledge/abilities or should they?

See I can remember from my AD&D 2e days where DMs were often more rewarding for outgoing individuals in the group. Ones who would "hog" the role-play splotlight, ones who would use their real-world knowledge to solve "in-game" problems. Ones who would game-the-DM instead of actually adhering to their's characters stats. Another player, for example, specifically detailing how to pick a dead-bolt lock with wire and a small metal fitting and using that knowledge for their Int 9 Dwarf Warrior in the game and the DM being perfectly fine with that. To me, that's a huge problem.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;831360That's a bad analogy because...  Actually no, it's a good one, but it defeats your point.  See, torc power may not be on their minds, but horsepower, top speed, 0-60 in how many seconds.  Or if not going for a sports car, you sell them how many people it seats, how safe it is, how much mileage per gallon of gas.

All those are mechanical bits (Kool Powerz) that look past how neat the car looks, is what a lot of people look for, they WANT to know how a car performs, because if it looks pretty, but doesn't go very far, or guzzles gas like your favourite slurpie on a hot day, then people will feel like they've been ripped off.

My apologies for lazily typing on a message board rather than fleshing out the concept.

Those mechanical bits on the car, the car salesperson can only use them to make the sale if such things are already important to the customer.  I will never care about 0-60 when looking for a car.  The salesperson will not make the sale to me if that is the pitch; it is a turnoff if that is the focus.  My best friend is keenly concerned about it, and so, 0-60 is a big selling point to him.

Similarly, the particular mechanical bits to Traveler have already been shown to be a turnoff to the OP's players.  But he still wants to make the sale.  Doubling down on selling the mechanics of Traveler will turn his potential players away.  Conversely, if the OP were in this thread asking how to sell Traveler to players who like a sraightforward game system with little in the way of kool powerz, my advice would be to talk up Travelers's mechanics.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;830866What are the best approaches to weaning players off of the craving for constant mechanical gain?
Should they be weaned off?
Is this a generational problem with no going back?

We play RuneQuest and do a lot of HeroQuesting.

Kewl powers are what makes the PCs different and special. Personally, I love them.

However, we gain them from HeroQuesting, not from increasing levels, so they are slightly different.

Quote from: Batman;831365I have a question though, why do you want players to rely less on Kool Powerz? It wasn't really mentioned in the OP so I thought I'd ask for better clarification.

So that we have the option of playing the many interesting games that don't offer the same amount of kool powerz.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;831356I know I said I was going to step out, and frankly, I'm not going to suggest anything, but the Bold part?  That is literally every single spell in a D&D styled game.  Every single spell is a separate rules block that has it's own unique abilities and doesn't interact with the base game, in any way.  So by allowing spells in D&D, you're allowing Kool Powerz.

The same is true for magic items (and non-magic items for that matter) -- they each provide a block of "Kool Powerz". What spells and magic items are in my game are completely under the GM's control, however.  Of course, in the games I run, everything is under the GM's control as there are no rules for players to try to enforce on the GM -- only guidelines for the GM to use in creating his or her campaign.

I don't have the problem with "kool powerz" because players who enjoy the "gamist aspect" of RPGs more than they enjoy exploring and interacting with the setting as their character(s) generally refuse to play in my games or drop out after a session or two of not being able to impose their preferred style of play on the GM and other players.

QuoteWhat makes them different?  The fact that the DM (in some editions) is the one who gives them out?  Or something else that makes them "OK"?

The fact that I give them out and that they all have limitations that make it somewhat easy to prevent their use (spells fail if the caster takes damage before the spell goes off, spells can't be cast if the caster is silenced or can't gesture, magic items can be dropped, etc.) is what makes them acceptable in my games. Naturally, these limitations apply to enemies as well as PCs. Players