My players are not adversarial and I do not resent them in any way. We have a great time. But as I've said before, they don't love RPGs so much that they won't go do something else if they aren't interested in the game I'm offering. No muss, no fuss, no hard feelings. Ultimatums won't work. They'll just give me a, "That sounds cool, it's just not for me, see you in Starcraft II later this week as usual, right?" and be on their way.

I can genuinely offer anything I want, but I can't compel people to sign up for it. They'll just run more board games or WoW raids or whatever instead. And I'll always be welcome to join them in that. But of course I want to run RPGs. So I compromise.

I compromise until I figure out a way to make a sales pitch that gets past their allergic reaction to what I described. That's what I'm asking for. It's not some drama, some battle of wills.

Alright, so the word "wean" infantilized them, poor choice of words on my part, it obscured the nature of the problem. I just want to open their minds a little.

Drag out the XP process so that leveling up takes +X more sessions. Fill out those sessions with more setting compelling content. Don't reward easy combat slaughters or easy money with XP.

Those who are just in it for the powerz grinding will float on back to online raids, those who are in it for playing a role in an imaginary world will stay and thrive — all are happy.

Perhaps the thing to do would be to run a system that lets the players do their thing, while running a game that challenges that mind-set without being over the top about it.

For instance, run a 3.5 or PF game - which has all the mechanical bits it sounds like your players are interested in - but run an adventure heavy with political stuff, mysteries, exploration, and/or kingdom-building. Give the players moments and opportunities to shine and use their mechanics, but also ensure that one of the main goals of the game is something that the mechanics explicitly do not cover, or if it does, does so with a wide enough brush that there's significantly fewer "dials and levers" for the players to engage with on a mechanical level.

If they are totally willing to drop the game essentially on a whim if it doesn't tickle their fancy, then you have a significantly harder job, and will have to ensure that the elements lacking in mechanical complexity are sufficiently compelling that they don't wander off.

This thread inspired Kodarr the Barbarian... system, campaign, and Game Mastering.

Here's the link to his advice column:  
http://www.draconicmagazine.com/articles/kodarrs-kommandments-8

VS

Wee bit of self promotion...

If players are really only interested in what their characters are capable of mechanically there is little that can be done. Try to excise them from your games and banish them to their mom's basement where they can spend countless hours building the ultimate whatever, because really, they will enjoy that more than actually playing.

Some ideas in brief:

Play a game that offers cool stuff instead of powers, like Traveller. In spite of surface similarity the dynamic may be different.

Emphasize followers instead of individual abilities. More units adds capability and tactical richness without the kewl factor.

When the players try to do something non-mechanical, treat it as their characters are highly competent and generally let them succeed unless there's a good reason not to. Then they'll be less inclined to look to powers as an escape clause for beating the world.

Once you put the rules in context, as Tenbones mentioned, then you end up making decisions on things other than the numbers.  Greatswords are always awesome...in games without reach, size or weight limits, or in settings where peasants carrying battlefield weapons into a bar raises no eyebrows.  In reality a greatsword isn't always the best tool anymore than a squad automatic weapon, automatic shotgun, or sniper rifle is always the best weapon for a soldier.  Context matters, and playing the rules divorced from setting relevance eliminates that context.

Whenever the players are focused on the rules to the detriment of the campaign setting...change the rules.  Pathfinder is great for Golarion...it makes less than zero sense in any other context.  Take all those prebuilt templates of powers, blow them up and reassemble into setting specific classes.  Don't allow unlimited multi-classing.  Allow for more free skill choice, so the min-maxers aren't forced into CharOp mode by having only X possible Skill slots at Y level.  Come up with alternate means of advancement based not solely on XP, but on time, money, social connections.

If your players are thinking of their characters as numbers on the sheet, there's only ever been one way to deal with that (if you think it needs dealing with) - get them off the sheet and into the heads of their characters with advancement totally in context based on your world, not on a body armor plate masquerading as an RPG book.

The more I think about it, the more I think you've got two options:

1) "Hey, I wanna run a game like this.  It'll be different than what you're used to, in that you won't have kewl powahz.  But here's what'll be cool about it.  Interested?"

2) Run the system with the kewl powahz.  Let 'em have them.  But then focus on the non-kewl-powahz parts of the game - the interactions, etc.  Let them see the cool stuff that exists outside of powers and widgets.

Personally, as a GM, I'm all for giving my players cool powers, so I just realized that I can't really contribute, so I am going to apologize for butting into this thread and backing out.

Sorry, man.

Happy Gaming.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;831009they don't love RPGs so much that they won't go do something else if they aren't interested in the game I'm offering..."That sounds cool, it's just not for me, see you in Starcraft II later this week as usual, right?"

You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Sounds like you have computer gamers there who don't mind playing tabletop games, but don't particularly care one way or another whether it's a tabletop role-playing game.

You need a different group.  You've got one it sounds like that you have fun with, up to a point, and they're not willing to compromise at all towards making the game more fun for you (or even trying to).

When you can answer "See you in Starcraft II later this week as usual, right?" with "Nah, I'm playing in a RuneQuest game on Saturdays now.", you might see them start to put the merest fraction of thought into your tastes and likes instead of you always compromising instead.

Or not, then oh well.  At least you'll have a type of game you like.

Who got them started on "cool powers"? Maybe that person can get them off it with something new.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;831009My players are not adversarial and I do not resent them in any way. We have a great time. But as I've said before, they don't love RPGs so much that they won't go do something else if they aren't interested in the game I'm offering. No muss, no fuss, no hard feelings. Ultimatums won't work. They'll just give me a, "That sounds cool, it's just not for me, see you in Starcraft II later this week as usual, right?" and be on their way.

I can genuinely offer anything I want, but I can't compel people to sign up for it. They'll just run more board games or WoW raids or whatever instead. And I'll always be welcome to join them in that. But of course I want to run RPGs. So I compromise.

I compromise until I figure out a way to make a sales pitch that gets past their allergic reaction to what I described. That's what I'm asking for. It's not some drama, some battle of wills.

Alright, so the word "wean" infantilized them, poor choice of words on my part, it obscured the nature of the problem. I just want to open their minds a little.

Wait until some popular media comes around that really sells the sort of game you want to run, and pitch a game in that setting.  If they have Batman or Pirates of the Caribbean on their minds, they may be willing to go against their preference for playing Supermen.

Quote from: CRKrueger;831147Once you put the rules in context, as Tenbones mentioned, then you end up making decisions on things other than the numbers.  Greatswords are always awesome...in games without reach, size or weight limits, or in settings where peasants carrying battlefield weapons into a bar raises no eyebrows.  In reality a greatsword isn't always the best tool anymore than a squad automatic weapon, automatic shotgun, or sniper rifle is always the best weapon for a soldier.  Context matters, and playing the rules divorced from setting relevance eliminates that context.

Whenever the players are focused on the rules to the detriment of the campaign setting...change the rules.  Pathfinder is great for Golarion...it makes less than zero sense in any other context.  Take all those prebuilt templates of powers, blow them up and reassemble into setting specific classes.  Don't allow unlimited multi-classing.  Allow for more free skill choice, so the min-maxers aren't forced into CharOp mode by having only X possible Skill slots at Y level.  Come up with alternate means of advancement based not solely on XP, but on time, money, social connections.

If your players are thinking of their characters as numbers on the sheet, there's only ever been one way to deal with that (if you think it needs dealing with) - get them off the sheet and into the heads of their characters with advancement totally in context based on your world, not on a body armor plate masquerading as an RPG book.

Exactamundo!

Edit: fuck i'm old.

Quote from: Alathon;831191Wait until some popular media comes around that really sells the sort of game you want to run, and pitch a game in that setting.  If they have Batman or Pirates of the Caribbean on their minds, they may be willing to go against their preference for playing Supermen.

To clarify, it's not about playing supermen, it's about distinctive mechanical crunch. D&D's Sneak Attack is a perfectly mundane thing in the gameworld's fiction, but still qualifies as "kool powerz" because it has been sectioned off and complexified for a certain class to feel special.

As for the media based-pitch, I did try. I used Firefly to pitch Traveller and Stars Without Number. No sale.

By the way, I do want to thank everyone who has posted in this thread, it has been very interesting and thought provoking.