For non-D&D play I think the best system is WEG d6 Star Wars. Since that's out of print, get the free Mini-6 RPG - http://www.antipaladingames.com/p/mini-six.html - covers the same bases as Savage Worlds but far more accessible, and includes a bunch of very nice settings (inc a Star Wars ripoff).

In Alexandrian terms it's not a 'complete game structure' because it lacks D&D's default play mode, but that criticism also applies to Savage Worlds and 99% of the RPGs out there - at least Star Wars has 'shoot the stormtroopers'.

Quote from: Beagle;821225As it stands, the system was a wasted opportunity in pretty much every regard.

  Green Ronin's about to publish an all-in-one book, so it may get a chance at a relaunch.

They really should.  I do love that 3d6 with one die being the dragon die.  Get doubles with a dragon die and you can pull off special bonus effects depending on the amount you get.  Planning to punch a person and rolled a 6, 6, 3 with a dragon die being a 6.  Congrats you got 6 points to spend on this chart to see how much you fuck that guy over.

Pretty good system that is easy to learn and understand.  Now if they can port it over to other settings instead of being stuck with EA.

Quote from: Snowman0147;821257They really should.  I do love that 3d6 with one die being the dragon die.  Get doubles with a dragon die and you can pull off special bonus effects depending on the amount you get.  Planning to punch a person and rolled a 6, 6, 3 with a dragon die being a 6.  Congrats you got 6 points to spend on this chart to see how much you fuck that guy over.

Pretty good system that is easy to learn and understand.  Now if they can port it over to other settings instead of being stuck with EA.

  From Green Ronin's 2015 plans post back in January:

Quote from: http://greenronin.com/blog/2015/01/19/green-ronin-in-2015/Since we first released Dragon Age, people have been asking us if we were going to release the game system—known as the Adventure Game Engine—separately from the setting. The answer is yes! Our plan for this year is to release Fantasy AGE, a core rulebook for the system that I am working on right now. This will be strictly a rule book with no attached setting. The core of the game will be well-familiar to Dragon Age fans but there are some differences, the biggest of which is the magic system. That of Dragon Age was meant to emulate how magic works in Thedas, so I am modifying it heavily for Fantasy AGE.

Our goal is to release Fantasy AGE in May. Then at the end of July we will release the game's first setting book. This is our big GenCon release and part of something super exciting ... that I can't talk about yet. This will be the focus of our GenCon presence this year and perhaps the biggest RPG story of the year. Watch for an announcement in a few months.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;821258From Green Ronin's 2015 plans post back in January:

Green Ronin's been getting curbstomped by both EA and GRRM as far as their licenses go.  Add to that their small size and it's impossible it seems for them to ever move quickly enough to really jump on the momentum of releases of their licenses tied-in products.

Dragon Age set one was no more limited than the Red Box or Pathfinder Basic.  The delay was the killer there, but now that it's done, it's still a great system for new players, especially with Inqusition being just released.

Quote from: CRKrueger;821260Green Ronin's been getting curbstomped by both EA and GRRM as far as their licenses go.  Add to that their small size and it's impossible it seems for them to ever move quickly enough to really jump on the momentum of releases of their licenses tied-in products.

Dragon Age set one was no more limited than the Red Box or Pathfinder Basic.  The delay was the killer there, but now that it's done, it's still a great system for new players, especially with Inqusition being just released.

   I remember the long wait for the full run of DC Adventures products, too. I think this is why they're continuing the trend they started with that and starting to create unlicensed versions of their licensed games to build on players who were attracted to the licensed games--it means they have stuff to sell those players when the licenses slow down or run out.

  But apparently the all-in-one Dragon Age book (which is different from the Fantasy AGE standalone) is being shown off or at least talked up at GAMA and generating some buzz.

Quote from: estar;821125The major flaw in many arguments presented in this thread is that changing the rules will fix the problem. That is the same mistake the story gamers make. Rules won't fix tabletop RPGs. What will fix tabletop RPGs are better referees. Because in the hands of a referee who knows what he is doing there is still nothing like tabletop roleplaying.

Good post!

Other tabletop games got smart and slick.  An evening's fun in an evening if you will.

Look at boardgames - straightforward core rules in a 20-page booklet, with complexity hived off onto cards.  Narrow focus and strong themes, well-defined gameplay, clever data visualisation, superb production values.

Dungeon crawlers may lack the sheer wonder of your first D&D game, but they handle other aspects well - tactical combat, exploration, resource management, the balance between GM and the party.  A game like Imperial Assault is half a year's campaigning in a £70 box.

A lot of successful wargames these days are quick-play, require smaller armies and are deigned to get you up and running but want you to come back with depth in the rules, and a range of playstyles and options.  Games Workshop are being hammered in the market for big, money and time-intensive games that are full of rules quirks and trap options.

Like GW games, I think RPGs are a mature market.  Companies are making what sells to current gamers - big, colour rulebooks full of edge-case rules and setting detail down to the taps on the Baron's bidet.  GM material always sells less than player material, because fewer people GM.  And there's the worry in a mature market that you're selling heavily to collectors rather than gamers.

What sells well now may not be best for the market as an ongoing concern.  And of course, unlike other tabletop games, there's a fundamental disconnect between the hobby and the industry.

For me, the best two starter games were Star Wars D6 (templates!  In Media Res!) and its predecessor, the work of genius that was 1st Edition Ghostbusters.  And they're 30 years old.  Mini 6 is a cracking game too mind you.

Savage Worlds does try to offer a streamlined game system, and setting books that are a mix of background, scenarios and campaign outline.  But it's a quirky game - there are a lot of trap options generating e.g. combat characters.

It's good that toolkit games like RPGs do exist, much like the wargames you see at shows that are set up on 18ft boards (and yes there are rulesets that cater to those).  And much like the wargaming "minigames" of painting and research, a lot of people get a lot of pleasure out of worldbuilding, optimising characters or creating vehicles.  And for their sheer flexibility and human moderation, RPGs are an unbeatable experience when they work well.  But I don't think RPGs ever addressed the issue of an evening's fun in an evening.

All very much IMHO

And Green Ronin has just announced a Kickstarter for their first AGE setting.

  Somehow, I don't think it's going to be very popular here ...

http://greenronin.com/blog/2015/03/23/

Quote from: Larsdangly;819563I would have said Tunnels and Trolls seized this niche 40 years ago and never let go.

Except I don't know of anyone who actually plays T&T or promotes it.  No, really, I'm not trying to be ugly about the matter.  Aside from some noise about the collector's tin edition and the fact that it's a perennial mention by grognards, I really don't know of any promotion, mention of it, etc.

Quote from: CRKrueger;819878Please don't trigger me.  My favorite Shadowrun character died in Auburn.

You have been warned about Tone-Policing before, CRKrueger.  Take a week off from this thread and see my PM.  Just a friendly warning to everyone else posting - keep it civil or bans WILL be handed out.

Also, everyone here is wrong.  And so is that list.  There aren't ten, the answer is "Any RPG, ever"* with the caveat of "...as long as the GM is patient, knows his target gamer is new and wants to start playing RPGs and wants in turn to introduce that person to RPGs."

I can take the "softest" most rounded-corner general RPG and turn it into a PKing murderfest with my viking hat on so tight it squeezes my brain out of my ears.

Conversely, I can take Hero System and have our theoretical "newbie" dancin' on the ceiling just as long as I'm patient with them and take the time to introduce them to the system and it's complexities.

...

*=obvious jokes like Hybrid and FATAL need not apply

From the ones I've bought, I think Ancient Odysseys fits the bill very well for dungeon crawling goodness.

I also quite like Trollbabe from a funky hippie game perspective.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;821557You have been warned about Tone-Policing before, CRKrueger.  Take a week off from this thread and see my PM.  Just a friendly warning to everyone else posting - keep it civil or bans WILL be handed out.

My eyebrow actually twitched when I glanced at this. LOL

This top-ten list sucks. I'll go with d6 as a good starter system. There are easier ones, but I don't play easy. Ever.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;821562From the ones I've bought, I think Ancient Odysseys fits the bill very well for dungeon crawling goodness.

Good game- very underrated.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;821555And Green Ronin has just announced a Kickstarter for their first AGE setting.

  Somehow, I don't think it's going to be very popular here ...

http://greenronin.com/blog/2015/03/23/

That's not surprising. They don't have much to offer that they own. Magic Deer and Freeport is all they have. I'm honestly shocked that they didn't cross the streams yet.