10 Tabletop RPGs For Beginners

tuypo1 · March 14, 2015, 08:25:36 PM

Quote from: Beagle;820009That's not "fixing". That is the RPG equivalent of "fixing" Hamlet by adding a new ending where Hamlet and Ophelia marry and live happily ever after because you don't like the original. Nobody needs yet another boring fixed point distribution system.
Now, if you actually want to contribute to a game, an alternative character creation system for the milquetoasts, optimizers and other people who cannot abide random character creation, is not a bad thing. More options and choice is great. However, this is obviously also at least as true the other way 'round, and many systems greatly benefit from a nice, alternative character creation system using random elements.

its about bad habits if a persons first game has random character gen then they will think of that as the norm

i dont care what you do in your own home i just dont want our children exposed to it

rawma · March 14, 2015, 10:19:48 PM

Quote from: Bren;820053And my preference is for the designer to mostly stay out of the way of the new gamer and let them figure out what they want to do with the rules rather than acting as some authority figure telling the new person there is a right way (the designer's way) to play elf games.

I guess I don't see how the designer can get out of the way of the gamers figuring out what they want to do with the rules, when the rules themselves are the designer telling the players how to play that game.

Bren · March 15, 2015, 12:12:01 AM

Quote from: rawma;820109I guess I don't see how the designer can get out of the way of the gamers figuring out what they want to do with the rules, when the rules themselves are the designer telling the players how to play that game.

Present the rules in a neutral fashion without spending word count pontificating about how people should use the rules or on the designer's opinion of the one true way to play games. I mentioned several examples of games that explained the rules, provided examples of play, and didn't spend a lot of effort or word count pontificating about how people should play as opposed to how the rules work.

rawma · March 15, 2015, 12:35:53 AM

Quote from: Bren;820122Present the rules in a neutral fashion without spending word count pontificating about how people should use the rules or on the designer's opinion of the one true way to play games. I mentioned several examples of games that explained the rules, provided examples of play, and didn't spend a lot of effort or word count pontificating about how people should play as opposed to how the rules work.

You're making up the whole pontificating about how to play and one true way out of whole cloth; it wasn't in Ladybird's post.

tuypo1 · March 15, 2015, 12:38:34 AM

i have to agree with rawma your misunderstanding what his views are

that said he could have worded this a bit better

Quote from: rawma;820109I guess I don't see how the designer can get out of the way of the gamers figuring out what they want to do with the rules, when the rules themselves are the designer telling the players how to play that game.

or maybe found something completely different to say its a bit of an odd connection to make

Bren · March 15, 2015, 12:48:20 AM

Quote from: rawma;820133You're making up the whole pontificating about how to play and one true way out of whole cloth; it wasn't in Ladybird's post.

I wasn't claiming that Ladybird said anything about designers pontificating. How would you even get that from what I wrote?

rawma · March 15, 2015, 01:04:02 AM

Quote from: Bren;820143I wasn't claiming that Ladybird said anything about designers pontificating. How would you even get that from what I wrote?

Because you followed a quotation from Ladybird with "And my preference is [not pontificating]", which would imply that Ladybird was saying something about it. My mistake might have been assuming your statement was not a stupid non sequitur; I will endeavor in the future to avoid assuming your posts make sense.

Bren · March 15, 2015, 01:13:22 AM

Quote from: rawma;820145Because you followed a quotation from Ladybird with "And my preference is [not pontificating]", which would imply that Ladybird was saying something about it. My mistake might have been assuming your statement was not a stupid non sequitur; I will endeavor in the future to avoid assuming your posts make sense.

You should stick to Vulcan or whatever your native language is and stop trying to read English. I said what my preference in game presentation was. I even gave examples. I thought the difference between the old style examples I gave and the new style that Ladybird is arguing for as an improvement was clear.

But you seemed confused since you said you didn't see how the designer could get out of the way of the player. Maybe try a course in English as a second language?

rawma · March 15, 2015, 02:06:29 AM

Quote from: Bren;820148I said what my preference in game presentation was. I even gave examples. I thought the difference between the old style examples I gave and the new style that Ladybird is arguing for as an improvement was clear.

So now you are saying that Ladybird said something about designers pontificating ("the new style that Ladybird is arguing for", which you now present in contrast to your preference not to have pontificating).

QuoteBut you seemed confused since you said you didn't see how the designer could get out of the way of the player.

If the players are going to play the game designed by that designer, then how can the designer get out of the way? Send them to another game? Not actually design any rules? Copy some other designer's game rather than design their own game? The rules are how to play; if you write rules, you tell the players how to play.

Bren · March 15, 2015, 05:43:07 AM

Quote from: rawma;820163If the players are going to play the game designed by that designer, then how can the designer get out of the way?

I already answered that. I refer you in particular to how OD&D, Traveller, and Runequest 1 or 2 handled rules descriptions and explanations. Unlike Ladybird, I don't see any value to a longer, more detailed, or new fangled explanation. Do you?

What games would you recommend for a new person wanting to play RPGs? Do you think there are games that do a better job than the ones I listed at introducing new players?

tuypo1 · March 15, 2015, 05:45:27 AM

theres more to being a best beginers game then ease of learning

Beagle · March 15, 2015, 06:04:14 AM

Quote from: tuypo1;820090its about bad habits if a persons first game has random character gen then they will think of that as the norm

You are right.

Quote from: tuypo1;820208theres more to being a best beginers game then ease of learning

And you are right again! (I'm as surprised as you are).
The logical conclusion therefore is that any introductory game must include random character creation to establish the groundworks for a fruitful and creative carreer of potential new RPG enthusiasts. They will face the usual superficial pseudo-balance and overall blandness of pointbuy systems soon enough.

tuypo1 · March 15, 2015, 06:06:50 AM

when you think about it its kinda weird how the same arguments can be used to support 2 completely opposite schools of thought

Beagle · March 15, 2015, 06:17:25 AM

Don't fancy yourself. None of these statements qualify as arguments except in the "I feel this way, therefore it must be true" sense. The sense of mission derived from this overestimation of one's own opinion just requires commenting; it might be confused with a fact otherwise.

tuypo1 · March 15, 2015, 06:29:18 AM

that has got to be one of the most nonsensicle things i have read all day