I actually used the "The law says visitors must kill themselves at dawn" to get rid of a bitchingly annoying Lawful Neutral character named Kaine the DM foisted off on us. He was one of those Judge Dredd sort of "the law is the law." and made our lives miserable. (which was kinda the point so that was a success I guess.)

Kain pushed us one time too many and I decided that that was it. So I set up an elaborate plot and got Kaine into this town where that law was in effect and stalled till dawn. This was where things got interesting and the DM would have been honestly dead to rights to have played some sort of bypass that got the NPC out of the moral trap I'd laid.  And Kaine was ever one to browbeat us that "ignorance of the law is no excuse." But the NPC had trapped himself as I pointed out. All you had to do was register as a citizen before dawn.

Kaine offed himself and the DM awarded me some EXP for playing that so well. Which I hadnt expected. The DM loved it that I not only had remembered a throwaway comment on the town and played on it later. But that I had outmaneuvered the NPC without violence. Well. Violence on my part. heh-heh.

Normally though I seem to have an odd knack for causing villains to shift alignment and occasionally join me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;819791I don't know, for me alignment has never been any kind of problem at all.

(shrugs)  I'm sure there are partisans of every rule: after all, if someone didn't want the rule in the rulebook, it'd never have gotten in there.

Quote from: RPGPundit;819791With all the huge problems I've seen people have with alignment on internet forums over the years, I get the feeling that I must be doing it differently somehow.  

I don't know, for me alignment has never been any kind of problem at all.

And what's more, in my own settings (like AoI or Albion) I've done what I think is alignment+, both better and more directly significant to the game.  My complaint about vanilla D&D is that, if anything, alignment isn't made significant ENOUGH.

Can you go into what you did then?

Usually alignment isn't a problem when the DM just lets it basically just barely be in the game.

Alignment's been a table-flipping issue in my games before. I flat fucking do not use it anymore.

I'm comfortable with other morality systems in games if they're less arbitrary and punitive; I like systems that use "allegiances" or give players vices and virtues that they're rewarded for following.

Do any sci fi games like Traveller use "alignment"? Seems it's only in fantasy.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;819848Do any sci fi games like Traveller use "alignment"? Seems it's only in fantasy.

It's something that fuels my conviction that like several other elements like character classes, alignment is perceived by many to be an integral element in and a good fit to fantasy games pretty much because it was part of OD&D, and people expect what they're used to seeing.

By contrast, alignment wasn't a part of the first widely popular SF or supers games, so people don't expect to find it in those genres.  Does any SF setting other than Star Wars -- for which a variable good-evil axis is an integral part of the milieu -- use anything of the sort?

Quote from: Ravenswing;819849By contrast, alignment wasn't a part of the first widely popular SF or supers games, so people don't expect to find it in those genres.  Does any SF setting other than Star Wars -- for which a variable good-evil axis is an integral part of the milieu -- use anything of the sort?

No, there seems to need to be some kind of supernatural element. Otherwise, alighnment is simply a code of conduct, however open or narrow. Now that I think about it, you had to be a "hero" or "heel" in a wrestling RPG I came across once, I think.

Over the years I've cooled quite a bit about it. Mostly now it is just a code of conduct in my games, unless you actively choose to tie yourself to a supernatural power. I've toyed with an idea where a state of mind has actual "real" effects on a character, but never developed it. (Dune-ish setting)

It's stupid because different cultures and societies have different ideas on what is good or evil.

The Roman empire is a good example. If you look at the Justice System, for example, it was noted for it's extreme use of Judicial torture. For example, during the late roman empire, there was a children's book on justice system about two accused thieves. One was nobody who was tortured until he confessed, and the other was man with many patrons who escaped the judicial torture. The implication was that man with more access to rich Romans was more "Good" then the man without such connections.

Would you guys say a Paladin trying to overthrow someone that stole the throne to a kingdom by assassinating the king would be LG? Or chaotic?

lawful good probably a paladin will never support unjust rule

its really hard to shift on the law chaos axis

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;820000Would you guys say a Paladin trying to overthrow someone that stole the throne to a kingdom by assassinating the king would be LG? Or chaotic?

Both, or none depending on the attitude of the rebel, the usurper and the chosen methods to provide a government after the fall of the current ruler. Good intentions don't fill power vacuums.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;819848Do any sci fi games like Traveller use "alignment"? Seems it's only in fantasy.

Robotech, Rifts, pretty much all of Palladiums stuff does.

Gamma World and Star Frontiers didnt. Dont recall if Buck Rogers did?

Albedo has the SPI rating. Socio-Political Index. Which was a guage of how mentally stable you were. Battlefield trauma and other hard choices or experiences could erode it. Downtime and counseling would buffer it. The lower it dropped the worse the character acted. Paranoia, meaglomania, etc. Like if you crossed Dragonlances sliding alignment system with Call of Cthulhu's sanity system.

Quote from: Beagle;820004Both, or none depending on the attitude of the rebel, the usurper and the chosen methods to provide a government after the fall of the current ruler. Good intentions don't fill power vacuums.

But the power vacuum is more an issue about consequences. And you can't predict that beforehand; a Paladin would be allowing evil for the sake of expediency.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;820000Would you guys say a Paladin trying to overthrow someone that stole the throne to a kingdom by assassinating the king would be LG? Or chaotic?

Do the common people approve of the usurper and think his rule is for the greater good? Then they think the paladin is Chaotic.

Do the angels, with their unnatural insight, see the paladin's cause as working towards the greater good? Then the angels think the paladin is Lawful. And yes, this can be at the same time as the common people see the paladin as Chaotic.

Alignment is ultimately about relationships. People react positively to those they think are on their side, negatively to those on the opposite side. With fivefold or ninefold, there's more grades (same side, almost same side, neither side, almost opposing, completely opposite,) but it's still the same principle. And if you have magic in the world that reveals what's truly in a person's heart, you can have a distinction between people who believe you're on one side and those who know you are not.

Quote from: talysman;820058Do the common people approve of the usurper and think his rule is for the greater good? Then they think the paladin is Chaotic.

Do the angels, with their unnatural insight, see the paladin's cause as working towards the greater good? Then the angels think the paladin is Lawful. And yes, this can be at the same time as the common people see the paladin as Chaotic.

Alignment is ultimately about relationships. People react positively to those they think are on their side, negatively to those on the opposite side. With fivefold or ninefold, there's more grades (same side, almost same side, neither side, almost opposing, completely opposite,) but it's still the same principle. And if you have magic in the world that reveals what's truly in a person's heart, you can have a distinction between people who believe you're on one side and those who know you are not.

I agree, there can definitely be a distinction between a person's actual alignment, and what the common people see them as. I have no problem rendering the people's reaction because that could be anything.

I'm more concerned about what the alignment is judged to be in the cosmic sense since it affects the Paladin's powers. If the Paladin is actually acting accordingly, then it doesn't matter if the people think he's Chaotic. But it would if his deity did.

Along those lines, how much leeway would a Paladin have to work with an evil character if it's for a greater good?

Also would you say that the Lawful/Chaotic axis is basically Principles VS The Ends Justify the Means? The problem is, if the ends justify the means, it's hard to see how one can end up "chaotic good" since the entire point of doing /anything/ to get what you want involves morally questionable things.