Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;815703On some parts I agree with you.  Then there's the clusterfuck that was 1e Lunars and Sidereals.  Call me crazy, but shoehorning entire splats into specific genres of fantasy seems like a recipe for disaster, particularly when the head dev makes it a point to have no creative oversight.  

1e Sidereals was a clusterfuck? That book is generally highly regarded from what I have seen.

Quote from: Skywalker;8164581e Sidereals was a clusterfuck? That book is generally highly regarded from what I have seen.

I owned it and couldn't really make heads or tails of the charms when I had it. Some were easy, but some frankly, read the like the writer was on acid. The problem was that Rebbeca Borgstrom interwove the fluff description of the charms with the mechanics. If you could penetrate the fluff, they were apparently, amazing. If you could not (like me) you used the fluff from the book and didn't use sidereals in your game.

Quote from: Iron_Rain;816491I owned it and couldn't really make heads or tails of the charms when I had it. Some were easy, but some frankly, read the like the writer was on acid. The problem was that Rebbeca Borgstrom interwove the fluff description of the charms with the mechanics. If you could penetrate the fluff, they were apparently, amazing. If you could not (like me) you used the fluff from the book and didn't use sidereals in your game.

The charms win in Sidereals 1e were fine (well designed even IMO). As said, Sidereals 1e is generally regarded as one of the better Exalted books mechanically.

The issue you are describing sounds more like the one that people had with the Resplendent Destinies. Fair Folk was the splat that had charms that were tough to grok IME

Quote from: Skywalker;8164581e Sidereals was a clusterfuck? That book is generally highly regarded from what I have seen.

It really depended on what your opinion of Jenna Moran/Rebecca Bergstrom's particular style was. I find her overly florid, dense, seemingly deliberately obtuse and not nearly as clever as she thinks she is. It was actually a running gag that it took a special talent "Bergstromancy" to decipher her intermingled prose and mechanics correctly.

But some consider her a genius. No accounting for taste.

I will say that in the few times I interacted with her she was one of the most professional and friendly of the Exalted staffers.

Quote from: Nexus;816497It really depended on what your opinion of Jenna Moran/Rebecca Bergstrom's particular style was.

I am aware of the division and I have a serious dislike of Rebecca Borgstrom's design work having failed to grok much of her work. But even then, I had no issue with Sidereal 1e charms and thought them to be good.

Quote from: Skywalker;816500I am aware of the division and I have a serious dislike of Rebecca Borgstrom's design work having failed to grok much of her work. But even then, I had no issue with Sidereal 1e charms and thought them to be good.

Not trying to say you're wrong for liking them just answering the question as I understood it. Personally I really dislike Sidereals and found them to be the beginning of a downturn in the line but there's no denying they're appear to be very popular among the fans base, particularly on rpg.net.

Quote from: Iron_Rain;816491I owned it and couldn't really make heads or tails of the charms when I had it. Some were easy, but some frankly, read the like the writer was on acid. The problem was that Rebbeca Borgstrom interwove the fluff description of the charms with the mechanics. If you could penetrate the fluff, they were apparently, amazing. If you could not (like me) you used the fluff from the book and didn't use sidereals in your game.

Yeah, some of them were fairly straight forward. Others where major WTFs? There was thread after thread trying to puzzle out some of them like Avoidance Kata.

But really problem was that I just didn't like the basic premise and concept of Sidereals and their abilities. Like Fair Folk it seems weird, overly meta and strange for the sake of being strange without bringing in value to the game, IMO. And began (or accelerated) what felt like a trend for that in the line overall.

Edit: OTOH, I like First Edition Lunars and the only part of MOEP: The Infernals I had a problem with was the mechanics. So Mileage is going to vary allot.

Quote from: Nexus;816501Not trying to say you're wrong for liking them just answering the question as I understood it. Personally I really dislike Sidereals and found them to be the beginning of a downturn in the line but there's no denying they're appear to be very popular among the fans base, particularly on rpg.net.

I think their appeal goes wider than that. I remember Kenneth Hite giving a glowing review of Sidereals 1e when it came out.

Quote from: Skywalker;816513I think their appeal goes wider than that. I remember Kenneth Hite giving a glowing review of Sidereals 1e when it came out.

I didn't say only on rpg.net, I said particularly on rpg.net but the fanbase in general seems like them.

Am I nuts or is hatewheel being way way to literal here?

You can't deliberately use the power to look mimic some one else's appearance. That's not that hard to understand is it or am I just stupid?

The page if anyone wants to follow the conversation.

Just got my hands on the raw text for 3rd Edition.  Going over it right now.  They've really cleaned up some of the stupid present in the setting.  I'm still laughing at how pretensions and "goffic" Abyssals are.

Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;818393Just got my hands on the raw text for 3rd Edition.  Going over it right now.  They've really cleaned up some of the stupid present in the setting.  I'm still laughing at how pretensions and "goffic" Abyssals are.

Any details you'd like to share?

Quote from: Nexus;818398Any details you'd like to share?

For starters, the history presented isn't as obsessively defined as it was in 2nd Edition.  The setting feels more open now, with plenty of room for you to tell your own story and insert your own content.

The Realm's gotten a bit of a face lift and Lunars have dominions of their own instead of fucking tree stumps out in the Wyld.  On a whole, they actually feel like they have a place in the setting.

The Solar/Lunar bond was a thing in the First Age, but as of the Usurpation, it was broken.

The Great Curse is still a thing and the mechanics of it are at least more workable than its previous incarnations.  Still think it's stupid as hell and was added in because White Wolf will never shake it's obsession with taking control of the character away from the player.  

Essence is no longer purchased with experience points.  Instead, its automatically rises by one point once a certain amount of experience points are spent.  Thus far, this is my favorite change in the rule system.  

Abyssals read like something a fourteen year old goth came up with.  Some choice bits:

The Romance of the Grave
Though they are death’s champions, the Abyssals yet live, and feel the desires of the living.  Some deathknights are moved by a strange romance, finding beauty and joy in the bleak silence of graveyards, the howling of wolves raised up to a cold and shining moon, the delicate work of spiders, the mournful arias of the dead. They may know love, perhaps even for one of the living.  But none should count on love or joy to save them when Death’s Lawgivers come riding. Many Abyssals see only death in death, and are pleased by cruelty and blood.[/I]

The Chivalry of Death
Classically trained Abyssals are given a code, which speaks to the truth of the grave. This truth is instinctive, and resonates even in those deathknights who forsake the Deathlords to walk alone.  Despair, futility, hopelessness in heroes and leaders and the hearts of men spread the Essence of
the grave far more effectively than wholesale slaughter, which tends to renew vows of perseverance, survival, and commitment to the gods. Kill a wife and spare the husband, and you may have made an enemy for life, but you have also made the man questionable to everyone around him forevermore. And so the Abyssals sometimes stay their hands. They let their enemies live. They preach bleak sermons and move on without incident. They let the world move in its own course, touched by their darkness. This is the chivalry of death.  Few living individuals understand the chivalry of death, even when a deathknight patiently explains it. Who can say why one man or village is spared, while another is cut down or razed to ashes? Why does an Abyssal let his foe live with the memory of defeat in one battle, and slay
him in the next? The Abyssals are untroubled; they know, in their hearts, when they should stay their hand. They are unhurried; they know death’s triumph to be inevitable.[/I]

Play one of the Abyssal Exalted if you want
• to walk with death as your constant companion.
• to be a warrior-poet of macabre passions and dark romance.
• to be a master of necromancy.
• to be a champion of the dark lords of the Underworld.
• to uphold the chivalry of death.

I'll post more later.  I've only managed to get into 181 pages our of a good 949 thus far.

Dear gods, someone actually wrote that shit? And worse, someone who calls themselves an editor thought it was good enough to include in the book?

Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;818401For starters, the history presented isn't as obsessively defined as it was in 2nd Edition.  The setting feels more open now, with plenty of room for you to tell your own story and insert your own content.

The Realm's gotten a bit of a face lift and Lunars have dominions of their own instead of fucking tree stumps out in the Wyld.  On a whole, they actually feel like they have a place in the setting.

The Solar/Lunar bond was a thing in the First Age, but as of the Usurpation, it was broken.

The Great Curse is still a thing and the mechanics of it are at least more workable than its previous incarnations.  Still think it's stupid as hell and was added in because White Wolf will never shake it's obsession with taking control of the character away from the player.  

How do the mechanics work, most importantly how ignorable are they? They do feel like another Storyteller "We don't trust you to play your character correctly*" mechanic.

*Non optimal fashion for drama or whatever...

QuoteEssence is no longer purchased with experience points.  Instead, its automatically rises by one point once a certain amount of experience points are spent.  Thus far, this is my favorite change in the rule system.  

I'm on the fence about this. Do they explain the reasons for the change?

QuoteAbyssals read like something a fourteen year old goth came up with.  Some choice bits:

The Romance of the Grave
Though they are death’s champions, the Abyssals yet live, and feel the desires of the living.  Some deathknights are moved by a strange romance, finding beauty and joy in the bleak silence of graveyards, the howling of wolves raised up to a cold and shining moon, the delicate work of spiders, the mournful arias of the dead. They may know love, perhaps even for one of the living.  But none should count on love or joy to save them when Death’s Lawgivers come riding. Many Abyssals see only death in death, and are pleased by cruelty and blood.[/I]


The Chivalry of Death
Classically trained Abyssals are given a code, which speaks to the truth of the grave. This truth is instinctive, and resonates even in those deathknights who forsake the Deathlords to walk alone.  Despair, futility, hopelessness in heroes and leaders and the hearts of men spread the Essence of
the grave far more effectively than wholesale slaughter, which tends to renew vows of perseverance, survival, and commitment to the gods. Kill a wife and spare the husband, and you may have made an enemy for life, but you have also made the man questionable to everyone around him forevermore. And so the Abyssals sometimes stay their hands. They let their enemies live. They preach bleak sermons and move on without incident. They let the world move in its own course, touched by their darkness. This is the chivalry of death.  Few living individuals understand the chivalry of death, even when a deathknight patiently explains it. Who can say why one man or village is spared, while another is cut down or razed to ashes? Why does an Abyssal let his foe live with the memory of defeat in one battle, and slay
him in the next? The Abyssals are untroubled; they know, in their hearts, when they should stay their hand. They are unhurried; they know death’s triumph to be inevitable.[/I]

Play one of the Abyssal Exalted if you want
• to walk with death as your constant companion.
• to be a warrior-poet of macabre passions and dark romance.
• to be a master of necromancy.
• to be a champion of the dark lords of the Underworld.
• to uphold the chivalry of death.

So they're Emo Goths. Do they sparkle in direct sunlight too? Jebus Crux, its a desperate attempt to paint a group that really should be straight up antagonists in "Shades of Gray" with tortured purple prose.

QuoteI'll post more later.  I've only managed to get into 181 pages our of a good 949 thus far.

So what happened, another leak or have they sent out the whole thing to backers*?

*I might owe Bubbles an apology in that case.

Quote from: Kiero;818410Dear gods, someone actually wrote that shit? And worse, someone who calls themselves an editor thought it was good enough to include in the book?

Maybe it'll be part of what's cut from the public release?