They couldn't have been that surprised given the sheer bulk of the preliminary rules.

As a backer, I hope my deluxe copy now comes with a Caste Mark magnifying glass of my choosing

Quote from: Nexus;815338They couldn't have been that surprised given the sheer bulk of the preliminary rules.

The fact that the charm count has risen so much should also have been a warning too.

New Solar Awareness (or Medicine) Charm: Eyestrain Avoidance Prana

Quote from: Nexus;815344New Solar Awareness (or Medicine) Charm: Eyestrain Avoidance Prana

Then the abyssal charm version should be called Eyes Red With Blood Prana.

Quote from: Nexus;815344New Solar Awareness (or Medicine) Charm: Eyestrain Avoidance Prana

Yes, and though all it does is help one avoid eyestrain, this Charm will require 3+ paragraphs explaining how awesome/necessary it is, exactly how and why Solars use it, and what new rules and subsystems the player will need to memorize for it to be used.

I think the most text I've ever seen crammed on a page in an RPG book was in the Dragonmech line. If EX3 can top that, I will be extremely impressed.

I have to give them that the charm text hasn't been that bad in doc so far. But I guess it might be the "No frills, nothing but the stats" version. But it doesn't seem close to say, MOEP: The Infernals.

They'd almost have to cut down drastically on the Charm text. Nearly a thousand Charms in the 1E/2E style would probably require somewhere in the area of 200-300 pages, depending on the artwork included.

Quote from: Skywalker;815328I disagree. Not only is the mishmash of tropes one of its big appeals, but I think the original vision for the RPG as held by Grabowski showed a good understanding of those tropes. This was all central to the RPG's success.

Despite Grabowski holding his ship together longer than most would, the nature of the RPG industry in the 00s meant that the original vision was eventually lost and has been carried forward by people who don't understand them. This turned Exalted into what it is today.

On some parts I agree with you.  Then there's the clusterfuck that was 1e Lunars and Sidereals.  Call me crazy, but shoehorning entire splats into specific genres of fantasy seems like a recipe for disaster, particularly when the head dev makes it a point to have no creative oversight.  

QuoteI don't have any confidence that the Ex3 developers have shown any better understanding of those tropes. All I see is an intense focus on trying to fix the mechanics, which IMO is not the foundation on which Exalted is built.

Recent comments that they are reducing the font size to try and fit the originally estimated 400 to 500 pages or so has done nothing to alleviate my concern.

If the previews have shown me anything, it's that the current devs are keeping in loads of chafe in a misguided attempt to appease everyone and because they're too attached to it to cut it out.

Quote from: Marvelous_Metal_Man;815703On some parts I agree with you.  Then there's the clusterfuck that was 1e Lunars and Sidereals.  Call me crazy, but shoehorning entire splats into specific genres of fantasy seems like a recipe for disaster, particularly when the head dev makes it a point to have no creative oversight.  

If the previews have shown me anything, it's that the current devs are keeping in loads of chafe in a misguided attempt to appease everyone and because they're too attached to it to cut it out.

When I'm in a more thoughtful, objective mood I really think that I'm simply not in the target audience they're currently aiming for with Exalted. So far outside it, in fact that I don't fully grasp what they want or why in the Hell anyone would want that from an rpg. Its been a pattern with White Wolf games for a long that they get more pretentious and faux sophisticated (IMO, YMMV, etc) as  they go, eventually mutating too far away from anything I'd like to play to continue to follow.

When I'm in a less generous mood I largely agree with the above.

Unedited (for size) pre layout single column clocks in around 900+ pages. Now the default for OP books is 2 columns but you have to factor in all the art. Oh and due to the crazy number of new charms some of the new trees are a bit bonkers in size. So they have to consider if those are even viable in the new edition core. Etc, etc. Rich and co have a lot to consider.

The reason why there is so many charms is because the new core combat and social mechanics finally grok what excellencies and static defense numbers do to a attribute + ability rolls. Holden and John were not kidding when they said they discovered a lot of empty space in how 2nd edition handled them. Hell the new Dodge, ya dodge, charms are hilariously useful and I would be surprised to see 3e players flocking to it because of all the full on Batman/Spiderman levels of baddy trolling built in to them.

The whole game has a very modular feel to it with different but similar actions using similar mechanics I could as a ST see myself hacking tricks from one to handle unique situations on another. Like combat scaling from 1 vs 1 to squad to armies to ship vs ship actions all using the same rough moving parts but tailored for their unique situation.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;815738Unedited (for size) pre layout single column clocks in around 900+ pages. Now the default for OP books is 2 columns but you have to factor in all the art. Oh and due to the crazy number of new charms some of the new trees are a bit bonkers in size. So they have to consider if those are even viable in the new edition core. Etc, etc. Rich and co have a lot to consider.

That is a manly hunk of book.

Quote from: Skywalker;815341The fact that the charm count has risen so much should also have been a warning too.

In any case, I think Bubbles' is in for a disappointment if he's still expected in a month.

Quote from: Scutarii;18750834Not for a while - weeks to months.

It's been in Layout for 4-5 weeks (assuming it started sometime during the week of the 5th of Jan) so far and has just been passed back to the Devs to cut some text for space, once that's done I imagine there'll be another period of placing the next text back into the layout and seeing what need changing and tweaking, art dropping in and so forth. So yeah, 4-5 weeks to go from raw text+basic template (I believe they were working on the basic layout template prior to the completion of the text?) to a first draft for identifying spacing. At that rate I'd be surprised if we start racing through stages now

Note also that some of the artwork is still getting completed and coming in so that's another potential delay that's not really in their hands to control.

Dec 29th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: Maria Cabardo and I looking at the final final finals now. Talking to her about layout after she gets back in her studio on Jan1, as Holden has given us the text for the first six chapters!

Jan 5th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: Maria Cabardo and I looking at the final final final finals now. Going to check in with her about layout today. (NOTE: I think this week would be when it entered layout as Rich said he'd speak to her after the 1st of Jan and it seems with this update he didn't get much worth making public while he has something he makes public in the next entry).

Jan 12th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: hard to believe, Maria and I are still looking at occasional final pieces as they drift in. She is working to create a rough layout this month.

Jan 19th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: we asked the artists for a couple of redos, so new old new art is coming in. I was at MidWinter so have not touched base with Maria on how the layout is going.

Jan 26th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: we asked the artists for a couple of redos, so new old new art is coming in. Maria hopes to get me the very roughly laid in layout pages sometime next week.

Feb 2nd
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: we asked the artists for a couple of redos, so new old new art is still coming in. Maria hopes to get me the very roughly laid in layout pages by the end of this week. The Devs sent their music ideas for each Exalted for the EX3 Music Suite to the composer.

Feb 9th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: the last few pieces of art are still coming in. Maria and I went over her first “drop the text in” proof and made several significant decisions on fonts and sizes and sent that version, which had reduced the page count dramatically, back to the Devs for more extensive text revision. Maria has some beautiful ideas on different page borders for each chapter which still hold together with a single design aesthetic that she can now match to the text.

Feb 16th
RichT here, once again tagging onto Mirthful Mike’s report: the last few pieces of art are still coming in. Waiting for Dev notes on the roughly laid out pages. (NOTE: example of the art being out of their hands, the 12th Jan update says 'hard to believe, Maria and I are still looking at occasional final pieces as they drift in' and they're still coming in here 5 weeks later).

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;815738Unedited (for size) pre layout single column clocks in around 900+ pages. Now the default for OP books is 2 columns but you have to factor in all the art. Oh and due to the crazy number of new charms some of the new trees are a bit bonkers in size. So they have to consider if those are even viable in the new edition core. Etc, etc. Rich and co have a lot to consider.

The reason why there is so many charms is because the new core combat and social mechanics finally grok what excellencies and static defense numbers do to a attribute + ability rolls. Holden and John were not kidding when they said they discovered a lot of empty space in how 2nd edition handled them. Hell the new Dodge, ya dodge, charms are hilariously useful and I would be surprised to see 3e players flocking to it because of all the full on Batman/Spiderman levels of baddy trolling built in to them.

The whole game has a very modular feel to it with different but similar actions using similar mechanics I could as a ST see myself hacking tricks from one to handle unique situations on another. Like combat scaling from 1 vs 1 to squad to armies to ship vs ship actions all using the same rough moving parts but tailored for their unique situation.

This gives me a small glimmer of hope for 3E. As is, I think I'm going to be ebaying my two deluxe copies that I ordered.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;815738Unedited (for size) pre layout single column clocks in around 900+ pages.

Ye gads.