Yes.

Undead almost universally are compelled to kill living creatures. It's... pretty much the trope, and most of the undead in D&D do that. (The exceptions are ... ghosts, mainly, as they are motivated by other things)

Everyone killed by a spectre becomes a spectre. Spectres spread very easily, what with the ability to pass through solid matter.

Sooo... those rules beg the question of 'why isn't the world hip-deep in spectres by now?'

Obviously there is a reason, or the world would be. So it's natural to contemplate reasons why.

Maybe spectres just don't WANT to make more spectres (vampires make more vampires, etc.). Why might that be?
Maybe there's a counterbalancing force. The gods of Light might work to provide plentiful forces to fight undead when they get out of check. Or the gods of Order (Inevitables, such as Marut). Or there is some natural force that helps. Or the gods of undeath prefer a world of life for their creations to harass, and yoke them back when they get too plentiful.


As for wizards... in many editions they gain access to godlike powers. Does it really seem weird that some noticeable fraction of humans given power to bend reality MIGHT use it to dominate the world?

Again, obviously there is a reason, or the world would be. So it's natural to contemplate reasons why.

Maybe there's a divine force to counterbalance them (again, Inevitables, such as Quarut). Or there's something about that power that leads them elsewhere, like 'why dominate this mudball when I could be ruling my own personal created dimension?' Or there is a cabal of wizards that prefer things as they are and send OTHER 20th level wizards when someone gets uppity ('You want to rule the world? We already do. Just with subtlety, you oik')


These aren't really fanciful or weird system interpretations. They rank up there with 'why does anyone bother with an army of conscripts or castles in 3e?'

Quote from: Will;809081You know, that would make an interesting campaign premise.

A game world where magic is forbidden and large groups, particularly clergy, will hunt them down and kill them before their power becomes unmanageable.

Wasnt that the premise of the Spanish Inquisition?

Quote from: Will;809117Undead almost universally are compelled to kill living creatures.

Compelled? Really? I don't recall the words "compelled to seek out and kill the living" in my game rules. Perhaps you would be so good as to point out what editions that appears in.

Or maybe you are thinking of literary inspirations like the Lord of the Rings where the barrow wights and ring wraiths made hundreds of copies of themselves to take over the world...oh wait that didn't happen either.

So this complusion to go out and kill the living is something some DMs (like you and the OP) just made up as part of their personal setting.

QuoteSooo... those rules beg the question of 'why isn't the world hip-deep in spectres by now?'

Because unlike you and the OP some DMs don't assume undead are compelled to wander about killing the living? Could that be the reason? No that sounds way too easy. It would seem like someone would have thought of that solution and mentioned it in this thread by now. :rolleyes:

QuoteAs for wizards... in many editions they gain access to godlike powers.

3E maybe. But that isn't what the OP started to discuss and frankly 3E seems notoriously easy to break. Pun Pun anyone?

Really if you want to make assumptions that lead to your game being broken it seems silly to blame the game rules rather than looking at your assumptions. Especially when your assumptions are kind of whacked.

QuoteThese aren't really fanciful or weird system interpretations.

That seem a bit weird actually. They are the sort of things we thought about as kids as setting breakers and then we moved beyond after our first year or two of playing D&D. I'm kind of gob smacked when people who ought to know better seem stuck in that same newby teenage rut.

Quote from: TristramEvans;809119Wasnt that the premise of the Spanish Inquisition?

No. They were mostly about weeding out heretics and lapsed conversos.* They weren't really big into the witch hunting. Witch hunting seems to have been more popular in northern and western Europe.

* Which could also be financially profitable to those in power. Not surprisingly a lot of witch hysteria also had financial motives as well.

You know what, I had been up until now hoping that Bren's contrarian unproductive piss-taking in every thread recently was a series of bad days or something, and now I'm just going to have to write him off as a dishonest time-suck.

Get bent.

Quote from: Doom;809056While this is generally a good point, quite a number of old school adventures had some sort of paragraph in them about "certain spells won't work in this dungeon, due to [input Gygaxian penetration justification here]".

I really think it's understood that most significant defensive structures in D&D-land will have appropriate defenses built in to them. Yes, players don't see these defenses as spells in the PHB, but invisibilty-nullificaiton-3000-yard radius has a casting time of 6 months, and material components of a 6 ton slab of granite, among other things that just didn't seem worth putting in the PBH.

Most DMs that I've seen haven't assumed this. If a module said "X spells won't work here" - that was generally assumed to be a natural property of the area, or perhaps a long-lost ritual or divine effect, not something that a king or duke could easily commission. There have been lots of city modules where this isn't true of the defensive structures.

If there is a magic system, somewhere in the rules or background there should be description of what can be done with magic. If not in the player list of spells, then at least in the GM section on magic. How common things like invisibility-nullification are can be pretty important to both how the GM designs adventures and how players choose their spells and tactics.

Quote from: Bren;809111I'm saying that the scenario the OP presented is a weird fringe idea.

So are you saying pandemic spectre flu and lots of 20th level wizards with nothing better to do than fly around invisible napalming kings for kicks are a logical interpretation of the rules? Really?

While I don't agree with much of the OP's points, I would say that they are attempts at logical consequences to the world from having magic and monsters.

A lot of responses came across to me as empty denials. The point should be: what are the logical consequences of having a particular system's magic and monsters in the world?  How would it differ from the real world?  

Easily-reproducing monsters like spectres, werewolves and vampires do inherently have an issue for consistency. What happens, say, if a single werewolf escapes from the PCs attack? Could it go to the next town and convert dozens of people within a few days? If not, what is the mechanism that prevents this?

Quote from: jhkim;809140Most DMs that I've seen haven't assumed this. If a module said "X spells won't work here" - that was generally assumed to be a natural property of the area, or perhaps a long-lost ritual or divine effect, not something that a king or duke could easily commission. There have been lots of city modules where this isn't true of the defensive structures.

We went beyond lead to block scrying and had anti-teleport structures, and researched a number of defensive spells. And had a lot of arguments about what magic mouths could detect.

QuoteWhile I don't agree with much of the OP's points, I would say that they are attempts at logical consequences to the world from having magic and monsters.

A lot of responses came across to me as empty denials. The point should be: what are the logical consequences of having a particular system's magic and monsters in the world?  How would it differ from the real world?  

Easily-reproducing monsters like spectres, werewolves and vampires do inherently have an issue for consistency. What happens, say, if a single werewolf escapes from the PCs attack? Could it go to the next town and convert dozens of people within a few days? If not, what is the mechanism that prevents this?

The original post presented this only as stuff to mock, not stuff to explain.

Quote from: rawma;809147The original post presented this only as stuff to mock, not stuff to explain.

Quite possibly. I'm not really interested in the intent of the poster. I just think that the consequences of these fantasy features is an interesting topic, and I'd prefer to discuss that.

Quote from: jhkim;809140Easily-reproducing monsters like spectres, werewolves and vampires do inherently have an issue for consistency. What happens, say, if a single werewolf escapes from the PCs attack? Could it go to the next town and convert dozens of people within a few days? If not, what is the mechanism that prevents this?

Fair point, I suspect if the OP had presented the question more sincerely and avoided the ridiculous caricatures of RAWWW Spectres! and TEE-HEE-HEE ZAP! Evil wizards we would have seen more productive discussions.

Two simple changes that would help avoid the reproduction plague are (1) death by undead and lycanthrope bites do not automatically result in reproduction and (2) that the new creature is not automatically a minion of their creator.

(1) If less than 100% of those killed/bitten turn into a monster the rate of reproduction is slowed. Though unless the rate is so low that it isn't really a threat you need some other restraint on the growth rate. That could be cultural/social: undead may not really want company and may want to mostly be left alone unless disturbed and lycanthropes may be terratorial like a lot of predators and may not want to create rivals for prey; they may also fear triggering a crusade of silver wielding humans to erradicate them.

If social/cultural pressure isn't enough than make the monster give up some power (levels or hit dice for instance) to create the new monster and suddenly the army of minions controlled by a very weak leader is not too attractive.

(2) Don't make the new creature automatically a minion of their creator. I think that is already the case with were creatures, but for undead allow them the ability to over throw the domination of their master. Now the spectre needs to be concerned as to whether they are in the end creating a powerful servant, a powerful rival, and potentially a new master of their own. There is certainly ample precedent for evil servants turning on their masters.

These seem like incredibly obvious solutions to me.

Quote from: Will;809138You know what, I had been up until now hoping that Bren's contrarian unproductive piss-taking in every thread recently was a series of bad days or something, and now I'm just going to have to write him off as a dishonest time-suck.

Get bent.

Ironically I was just thinking before I read this that your continual strawmanning of other's posts including mine and your unwillingness or inability to actually respond to what people write while continuing to vacuously assert the same point of view over and over has led me to think that even RPGnet gets things right once and a while.

Maybe its best to monsters that easily and quickly replicate (certain undead, lycanthropes, for example) as very very rare even one off that pop up during a campaign once or twice, outbreak style.

Or given them an off switch that doesn't require extraordinary magic. Killing the alpha werewolf cure or destroy his bloodline, salting and burning the body of a victim prevents it from rising, that sort of thing.

Some monsters might even police themselves and keep their numbers down to avoid drawing too much attention or runing out of the prey and resources. Vampires and lycanthropes, for example.

Quote from: Arohtar;809059Exactly Omega. You are starting to learn.

These weirdos were attacked during a meeting in the forest. Old Elkhorn, the master druid, was roasted by fire balls and his dead body then disintegrated.



True I think.

No. You are just failing to actually use your brain... again.

Detect Invisibility is availible at the same level as Invisibility. The psychopath wizard is going to need it too as any good aligned wizard will be sending Invisible stalkers after him 24/7. Possibly several in tandem if they get really pissed off. Mass invisibility is now availible and the killer wizard will have to deal with that too just to figure out where anyone is. And we havent even gotten out of the C part of BECMI. Dont you feel stupid... yeah, you do.

Now lets look at M. At this point clerics automatically destroy spectres and at the higher levels have a good chance to wipe out more than one in a single go. Clerics now have access to Wish and Raise Dead Fully.

Then of course theres the I part. Gods. Gods who can cause all manner of trouble for the wack job wizard without even a shrug. Oh yeah, and said wizard nut and spectres are living on a planet sized monster that if sufficiently irked can create volcanos of sufficient power to damage even gods. Not even your wish will counter that sort of firepower.

Your inconsistencies exist only because you want them to exist and deliberately ignore and wave away any counterpoint. You fail again and again.

Why doesnt XYZ take over the world? Because there are things out there that counter them at every turn.

Why castles? Because there are hoards of humanoids that are stopped by such simple things. Why taverns? Because thats how it was in the real world. Pretty much every town I've ever been to has had at least one restraunt, some having been around a hundred years or more. Saloons were common in the wild west too and those didnt even have extensive farms around. People like to gather and chat over a meal after work.

And so on.

Feel free to continue to ignore all that and dig your hole ever deeper.

Quote from: Will;809081You know, that would make an interesting campaign premise.

A game world where magic is forbidden and large groups, particularly clergy, will hunt them down and kill them before their power becomes unmanageable.

Theres been a couple over the decades. Some obscure. Some as kingdoms in established settings.

Im pretty sure Forgotten Realms, Mystarra and Greyhawk all have "no magic" kingdoms somewhere in their cannon. Outside of RPGs its been a factor in novels and other media. The TV series Merlin had that as a theme recently.

Dragon had some articles on things like "No wizard/cleric/psionic" settings or kingdoms.

Quote from: Will;809117Yes.

Undead almost universally are compelled to kill living creatures. It's... pretty much the trope, and most of the undead in D&D do that. (The exceptions are ... ghosts, mainly, as they are motivated by other things)

Thats the thing. In the rules system the OP is basing all this off of. Spectres dont want anything. They just putter around doing nothing at all BY THE RULES. Their demeanor is based on either what the DM or module writer wants them to do. Or at the whim of a dice roll in which case you can and will run into friendly undead. By the rules they are no different from meeting or adventuring with any given Chaotic PC or NPC.

You could have one peacefully running a tavern in Specularum. By the rules.
You could run into a merry band of spectral troubadours. By the rules.

That is one of the immense strengths of BX and BECMI over AD&D. Nothing was nailed down.

Fair enough, but I hope you'd grant me that 'undead go around killing living things' isn't exactly a wildly out there assumption?

Granted, the easiest 'fix' is changing that assumption.

Quote from: Bren;809199(1) If less than 100% of those killed/bitten turn into a monster the rate of reproduction is slowed. Though unless the rate is so low that it isn't really a threat you need some other restraint on the growth rate. That could be cultural/social: undead may not really want company and may want to mostly be left alone unless disturbed and lycanthropes may be terratorial like a lot of predators and may not want to create rivals for prey; they may also fear triggering a crusade of silver wielding humans to erradicate them.

If social/cultural pressure isn't enough than make the monster give up some power (levels or hit dice for instance) to create the new monster and suddenly the army of minions controlled by a very weak leader is not too attractive.

1: In BX and BECMI its automatic infection if the victem looses at least half their HP from damage from one. But. Only humans can contract it.

More interesting is that there is an entire book dedicated to BX/BECMI lycanthropes and the endeavors of one werewolf to establish a kingdom open to lycanthropes. They police themselves and have strict rules against turning people without permission. It also presents various anti-lycanthropic items and creatures including a shapechanger race that kills werewolves and form-locking magic items as well as a scenario dealing with a cleric going through the area force "curing" them.

An early edition of Dungeon had an adventure involving a plot by wererats to infect and take over a town.

Theres also a book for 3rd ed for playing undead I believe. Ghostwalk?