I have no problem with people having a good time with 4E; if it were a bit simpler and faster moving I might even agree. But this particular 4E-centric argument about this particular point seems backwards. Basically, you are saying that 4E is a game of edgy near TPK's once some of the rules that most distinguish it from other editions get turned off.

Quote from: cranebump;806198...Is it the GM's job to protect player ego?

Yes, it is.  Exactly to what degree will vary from group to group and even from session to session, but a good GM gauges the mood at the table and tweaks things on the fly if needed.  Even in the most brutal campaigns, a whole lot of death coming at the wrong time may spoil the fun.

Ego may not be much involved, but fun sure is.

Quote from: Larsdangly;806444I have no problem with people having a good time with 4E; if it were a bit simpler and faster moving I might even agree. But this particular 4E-centric argument about this particular point seems backwards. Basically, you are saying that 4E is a game of edgy near TPK's once some of the rules that most distinguish it from other editions get turned off.

does anyone else recall that chart a year or so ago where someone compared how many goblins the average 1st level fighter would kill before dying himself, broken out by edition?  4e is clearly the more "heroic" edition, where lethality takes a back seat to epic powers.  Nothing wrong with that of course, but it seems silly to me to claim 4e is as gritty or lethal as previous editions

Quote from: AteTheHeckUp;806457Yes, it is.  Exactly to what degree will vary from group to group and even from session to session, but a good GM gauges the mood at the table and tweaks things on the fly if needed.  Even in the most brutal campaigns, a whole lot of death coming at the wrong time may spoil the fun.

Ego may not be much involved, but fun sure is.

Well, I DO see what you mean, but I feel a group pursuit requires some sublimation of ego, especially in a game that doesn't really have winners and losers, per se. I mean, your character dying doesn't mean you've lost anything but the time it takes to create a new one. Assuming you're playing with semi-mature folks, ego, one presumes, fades into the background (unless you're playing with people who brag about their "builds," I assume).

Quote from: Larsdangly;806444I have no problem with people having a good time with 4E; if it were a bit simpler and faster moving I might even agree. But this particular 4E-centric argument about this particular point seems backwards. Basically, you are saying that 4E is a game of edgy near TPK's once some of the rules that most distinguish it from other editions get turned off.

I sort of like the powers system, as far as At-Wills and such. I like the action economy, as well. There was just a bit too much going on when we began to hit higher levels. Play slowed to a rate that hurt our overall campaign, in my opinion. We were meeting twice a month at most, so spending a session doing one combat (which happened a couple times), was more than I was willing to sacrifice. Of course, I never got around to adopting some of the speedier play player-suggestions, so that may have been my fault, as well. Then again, I felt like we almost had to have the online tools to run the thing, so that was a drawback for me, as well. I think the players generally liked it, though all but one agreed it was ridiculously slow for us. The guy who enjoyed it was the one who had like 20-something little colored cards all spread out in front of him. I think he liked colors...

Quote from: AteTheHeckUp;806457Yes, it is.  Exactly to what degree will vary from group to group and even from session to session, but a good GM gauges the mood at the table and tweaks things on the fly if needed.  Even in the most brutal campaigns, a whole lot of death coming at the wrong time may spoil the fun.

Ego may not be much involved, but fun sure is.

I agree somewhat with this.  
Groups are all different.  I generally make it clear that we play a very lethal RPG, and one that mimics the thrill of survival and and the feeling of accomplishment of having a character lasting for a while of some of the earlier games.  And that a combination of bad rolls and poor decisions will very often be lethal.

So I've presided over 2 real TPKS and a few near TPKS in the last decade.  Before that there were a more.  But everyone has been warned and expects it in a dangerous game.   On the other side, when I felt a players enjoyment was going to take a real hit not due to his own fault, like losing a character when they did the right things and the dice just hated them that night...
However, I roll most of mine in front of them...

I've never had a tpk in a fantasy game. The potential is there, though. I wouldn't artificially prevent it.

I've had numerous tpks in Call of Cthulhu, but that's par for the course. Actually felt bad about it till one of my players was like "no, thats the awesome part. Dont pull punches. It makes the successes mean something"

I reckon I haven't played CoC enough; there's always been someone left to tell the tale (if only from a lunatic asylum).

Quote from: Kiero;806414My actual experience of 4e says that's bollocks. The closest my group has ever come to defeat or even a near-TPK was in 4th edition; where engaging in a third encounter that day, with no more Dailies and healing surges low meant all the buffers and safety nets were gone.

This wasn't "stupid PC behaviour", this was a case of having only one shot at taking out an enemy while they were relatively unprepared and we were already inside their fortress. In the end we retreated having hurt them, but didn't succeed.

You seem to be not denying but ignoring the point I actually made. My supposition regarding the difficulty of distinguishing the real imminent catastrophes might be mistaken; someone with more experiehce than I could speak with more confidence to that.

It would make your remarks clearer and less needlessly contentious if instead of "that" (which implies reference to what I actually wrote) you were to state explitly the proposition that you regard as bollocks.

Quote from: Phillip;806487I reckon I haven't played CoC enough; there's always been someone left to tell the tale (if only from a lunatic asylum).

Been playing regularly for a few years now. TPKs about 25% of the time. 25% one person survives. About 5% no one dies.

CoC is a good highlighting of genre expectation.

I think the problem people often run into is when you sit down to a fantasy game, that actually straddles several genres/sub genres.

So when people seem to strangely wuss out about a character dying, it's probably due to this clash of expectations -- they are playing Xena: Warrior Princess and you're playing Game of Thrones.

I mention CoC because, in my experience, people are more likely to be on the same page about what the genre is, since there are way fewer influences on the game. Folks who might have gotten pissed about their character dying after a bad spill from a horse may laugh out loud as pieces of their investigator rains down on the survivors.

It was the most exciting 4e session of my experience that inspired my speculation regarding potential difficulty in assessing danger. An expedition started out looking like just a good workout, but pretty suddenly went pear-shaped with a number of our figures incapacitated and the rest in a closing noose. I think our urging of them to get out while they could was strategically sound, that it really was luck that saved the day when they insisted on death or glory.

Mechanically, there is I suspect a more powerful ratchet in 4e both in levels and in numbers than in older D&D: When you're outclassed, you get outclassed a lot prettty fast. But I'm going on only a little experience and reading.

Thats a good point Will.

Torg is a fun game in generating a feeling of threat but swinging toward success, if you know how to run it well.

The system uses a card deck, and as you play you build a 'hand.' Trying different things gains you cards.
So while you struggle, you build a hand. And what looks overwhelming can lead to great rolls and leveraging them with cards.

Mind you, I think our GM was really adept at the system and it could easily go wrong, but it created a lot of fun tension.

Quote from: Will;806490CoC is a good highlighting of genre expectation.

I think the problem people often run into is when you sit down to a fantasy game, that actually straddles several genres/sub genres.

So when people seem to strangely wuss out about a character dying, it's probably due to this clash of expectations -- they are playing Xena: Warrior Princess and you're playing Game of Thrones.

I mention CoC because, in my experience, people are more likely to be on the same page about what the genre is, since there are way fewer influences on the game. Folks who might have gotten pissed about their character dying after a bad spill from a horse may laugh out loud as pieces of their investigator rains down on the survivors.

Taking one's thorazine cocktail on the verandah in the perfume of the jasmine, without the tedious bother of manually keeping oneself upright in one's chair is victory by any civilized man's measure, sir!