John Berry, of Bedroom Wall Press (producer of Hulks and Horrors) has recently announced his retirement from RPG writing (also, he's in Finland. What is it with non-finnish-sounding RPG writing guys living in Finland??).

Among the reasons he cited for Quitting Forever was that "the OSR community had become increasingly hostile to self- and public-funded works like mine".


Do you think that's true? Is the success of the OSR and the rise in fancy more professional OSR products actually meaning that the very small-press guy just isn't wanted anymore?

I think gamers in general have always been a bit hostile to self publishers and as such, the growth in the OSR's popularity has brought much of that anti-homebrew bias with it.

I think there can be some hostility, but no more than anywhere else.  You just have to be prepared that the game you designed might not be exactly in the same style as someone's favorite way of playing, and be ready for them to "OMG I'm gonna let you know you suck!" react to it.

Those types of reactions are true for OSR, modern, or whatever.  The only difference is that the OSR has people with 30 years of playing one way, so their opinions on the "one true way" is more ingrained, I guess.

For me, the biggest challenge is conveying what "old school" is, and means.  I actually feel like I have to put a forward in that explains what it means to me and my group as we played, and how that impacts how the game is designed.  I know our style (we started in '81) might not be exactly like someone else's, but that doesn't make it any less "old school".

That's J Arcane isn't it?

Wondered why i hadn't seen him around for a while.

Shame. Take it easy mate.

Honestly I wouldn't know who is self-publishing and who is a wholly owned subsidiary of Acme. Can't be bothered to check as I only care if I like the product. For instance, there's a really cool WWI fighter pilot game by a guy I see on this forum now and then, Clash something-or-other, that is a heap of fun. It looks a little amateurish but that's part of the charm as you can tell the producer loves the product. I assume it's small press or self-published. On the other hand, I see a lot of slick-looking but useless (to me) crap from "major" companies like Wizard of the Coast clogging the shelves when I venture into a games shop. So what difference should it make who published it? Is that really a thing?

Sorry to see him go and best wishes on his new course.

Quote from: RPGPundit;806107(also, he's in Finland. What is it with non-finnish-sounding RPG writing guys living in Finland??).

That must be a recent development.  I've actually met him when he was living in Portland.  As with most people, he's a decent guy in person who is more hostile and defensive online (like me lol).

But really, no one should expect to make a living as an indie small time game designer.  Lord knows I easily spend twice as much in costs (freelancers, etc) than I do in sales.  Hell, I sold almost 1,500 copies of Compact Heroes, which is a huge success by indie standards (physical non-pdf product), and after costs that was still only a couple thousand net profit for the year.

No, indie publishers do it for the love of the game.  Or they should.

I don't really follow the game publishing industry, but I would have said the opposite. Half the OSR things I own are from individual's Lulu pages or small press companies that are one or two employees past 'self publishing'.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a thing with fans in this hobby that just live to eat their own, shit out what's left, wallow in it because they have nothing better to do then whine because they are covered in shit.  I don't get it.

There's Kent. There's the 1 or 3 guys behind Your Dungeon Is Suck, althoough I probably wouldn't count them as OSR. There's a couple non-OSR people who freelance for the big publishers who also regularly lash out at self-publishers. Other than that, I can't think of any hostility towards self-publishers.

There is, however, a growing hostility towards Kickstarters and the like, because so many of these failed to deliver as promised.

It's a shame that a bunch of doifuses at one or more fora may have deleted J's official promotional efforts.

But I don't think it's so much "the OSR" (as a whole) being "hostile to self-publishers", as it is garden-variety Internet tribalism bullshit.

In any case, J, if you're following this — best of luck.

I don't doubt it's out there if you look for it but I haven't noticed any 'hostility'... heck, most of what I buy these days are from the little guys putting stuff out of their garage... 'zines and blog collections and such. Odd things I spot on RPGNow. Stuff that's likely ephemeral and I might not be able to get a few years from now.
I am NOT a fan of Kickstarter projects though, and generally wait till they finish to purchase the product if I'm interested.
 
Most of what I read regarding RPGs is on this forum or various blogs... so maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong places.
There's always been a crowd that favored fancy looking books... 'professional' products... more for looking than playing. When I do occasionally visit TBP I often notice them fawning over how 'beautiful' some new book is... but that's never been the sort of thing to attract my interest.

J will be back.  It's in his blood.

It's funny that the hottest and most vicious competition in the industry takes place in the part where there is the least to be gained from it.

Quote from: The Butcher;806124But I don't think it's so much "the OSR" (as a whole) being "hostile to self-publishers", as it is garden-variety Internet tribalism bullshit.

Yeah. The internet in general has been getting steadily nastier for a few years now.

I liked the sound of Hulks and Horrors, I even backed the original IDGG campaign that failed, but I just lost interest in it after that.

Translation: "It's less of a hit to my ego to claim 'My Stuff Isn't Selling Because They're Out To Get Us Indie Publishers!!!' than 'My Stuff Isn't Selling Because Not Enough People Like It.'"

There's always been a place for indie publishers in this hobby, since Day One, their business has always been marginal, and there are always a handful of people who hate the stuff they write.  The difference between then and now is that instead of several hundred people reading about How Much Your Stuff Sucks And This Other Indie Game Is So Much Better in Alarums & Excursions, several thousand are reading about How Much Your Stuff Sucks And This Other Indie Game Is So Much Better on obscure Interweb boards.

Never mind, of course, that the great majority of indie games, to the degree they're noticed at all, have ephemeral acclaim at best.  Ten years ago, the indie crowd on RPGnet were having wet dreams about Feng Shui, Tri-Stat and Dogs In The Vineyard, and to hear them talk, you couldn't be much of a gamer if you weren't into them.

How many people are playing them now?  (Hell, the author of DITV doesn't merely live in my town, he's a parishioner at my church.  And I just found this out when I looked up the publisher for DITV, an hour ago. The local FLGS doesn't carry his game.)

Meanwhile, there are hundreds of thousands of gamers who don't know, don't care, and never noticed in the first place.