Games like Empire of the Petal Throne, Bushido and others have setting where etiquette is very important. Even in historical European based games etiquette should matter, in my opinion. The courtiers of the royals live and die by "proper" etiquette.

What is the best method for representing this for a character (without the player having to actually know highly detailed etiquette) that you have seen?

... or am I wrong and etiquette should not be a factor in games?
=

If the character has a relevant skill, GM should assume they're being etiquetteful unless the player says otherwise. There are so many tiny rules of etiquette that it's not worth bogging down the game talk with it.

If they don't have the etiquette skill, assume they're being uncouth, and maybe ask for rolls to try and be etiquetteful.

If a character's supposed to know something the player clearly doesn't, I give them the "dialog box" treatment: "this thing you said you're doing is a major breach in protocol. Are you sure you're going to do this?"

I will do this twice, maybe thrice for the more absent-minded types. After this, they're on their own.

The Gm is the filter for the world. In both directions, You explain and describe the world to the players and when the players describe their actions you translate that back into the world.

I treat the skill use for etiquette just I would for perception or heavy lifting etc.

If the player has it I interpret what they tell me in light of the skill they have. So if they are strong they say I want to pick up X they can if not they can't.

If the player has Charisma or etiquette then they know what they need to do in a social situation.

If they are about to do something or say something wrong I let them know it is if they have the right level of skill, be it trying to lift something or how to introduce themselves to the king.

Social skills operate just like combat skills only we have more rules for combat.

Quote from: Ladybird;804374If the character has a relevant skill, GM should assume they're being etiquetteful unless the player says otherwise. There are so many tiny rules of etiquette that it's not worth bogging down the game talk with it.

If they don't have the etiquette skill, assume they're being uncouth, and maybe ask for rolls to try and be etiquetteful.

How many games have a specific skill for Etiquette?
If the character can't be assumed to have this skill due to background, what do you roll against?

Quote from: The Butcher;804377If a character's supposed to know something the player clearly doesn't, I give them the "dialog box" treatment: "this thing you said you're doing is a major breach in protocol. Are you sure you're going to do this?"

I will do this twice, maybe thrice for the more absent-minded types. After this, they're on their own.

What about a game where the player's are not from the current culture or environment?  Such as, washed ashore or brought into court without experience in dealing with others there.
=

Quote from: Greentongue;804397How many games have a specific skill for Etiquette?

If the character can't be assumed to have this skill due to background, what do you roll against?

Many games have a skill that could be vaguely appropriate, like Streetwise or (Location) Lore, if they don't have an outright etiquette skill. If the system doesn't have that, and they're natives, I'd just assume they follow the relevant rules of etiquette unless they say otherwise; if foreigners, then forget it, they fail. Again, proper rules of etiquette are so complicated that you can't just pick them up on the fly, you need to be specifically taught over a period of time.

Basic Etiquette is a Level one skill in Guildschool

Sub skills are Gesture, Message, courtly manners, dining, heraldry, leisure sport under it.

Third Level skills are social hunting, lawn bowl, lawn tennis under Leisure sport,  and International manners under Courtly Manners.

All of these have appropriate attribute modifiers.  Only 10% of games played have really gotten into these, the other social skills get used a lot more.  We do describe a slight amount, and there are cross overs with other skills like some of the history skills and artist skills.

Quote from: The Butcher;804377If a character's supposed to know something the player clearly doesn't, I give them the "dialog box" treatment: "this thing you said you're doing is a major breach in protocol. Are you sure you're going to do this?"

I will do this twice, maybe thrice for the more absent-minded types. After this, they're on their own.

this seems like the best way to do it

Quote from: The Butcher;804377If a character's supposed to know something the player clearly doesn't, I give them the "dialog box" treatment: "this thing you said you're doing is a major breach in protocol. Are you sure you're going to do this?"

I will do this twice, maybe thrice for the more absent-minded types. After this, they're on their own.

Do you tell them what proper etiquette in that situation would be? Because all "are you sure you're going to do this" tells me is it might not be the right thing to do. It tells me damn all about what the appropriate thing to do or say might be.

Quote from: Greentongue;804397How many games have a specific skill for Etiquette?
If the character can't be assumed to have this skill due to background, what do you roll against?

Shadowrun has it (or earlier editions have it). Street, Corporate, Media, and a couple others.

Quote from: The Butcher;804377If a character's supposed to know something the player clearly doesn't, I give them the "dialog box" treatment: "this thing you said you're doing is a major breach in protocol. Are you sure you're going to do this?"

I will do this twice, maybe thrice for the more absent-minded types. After this, they're on their own.

The trouble with that is the player likely doesn't actually know what you expect. After all, not only don't they know the right etiquette, they can't read your mind to know what etiquette you expect, since you probably don't know the proper etiquette either, you just have an idea of what that etiquette is.

My method is simple. A minor breech of etiquette, we lop of the player's hand (determined randomly or chosen by the GM). For major breeches of etiquette, immediate castration. Everyone is nice and polite now.

I see Etiquette (and Streetwise) skills as gatekeepers.

Failing them mean your character do not look the part or you make yourself such a fool that people in place turn their attention towards your char. Successful roll means you get close to someone you want to see without a problem.

For instance, in one of my games a player decided to show off everyone (especially her mother) that she is a adult noble lady. Thus she tried to meet a suitable man to be her accessory in a major party. This meeting went pretty much poorly (player decisions and few poor rolls) but she is VIP (her mother buys tons of high tech weaponry to kingdom and his parents are arms dealers) so he agrees to go out with her (against his better judgement).

Later in the actual party she blunders her rolls again (player had really bad luck with her rolls) so she ends up looking desperate rather than daring. He leaves her at earliest possible moment and she endures evening of uncomfortable embarrassment and public humiliation while her mother looks at her as if she was going to have a fit. There is no access to princess or queen so she has to endure humiliation of being with petty nobles.

Another player on the other hand did everything right, came up with a discussion with prince and finally met queen (all require good decisions and several rolls). This gave her chance to push forwards her noble family closer to queen's ring of accepted official friends.

Summa summarum: in my game Etiquette is door opener, not deal maker.

Quote from: Greentongue;804397What about a game where the player's are not from the current culture or environment?  Such as, washed ashore or brought into court without experience in dealing with others there.

This is why my favorite way to play exotic settings is with PCs as foreigners, like EPT's "barbarians fresh off the boat", or Portuguese soldiers, merchants and missionaries in Tokugawa Japan.

I only "prompt" the players if their course of action betrays ignorance of some social rule their characters would be expected to know.

Quote from: Bren;804451Do you tell them what proper etiquette in that situation would be? Because all "are you sure you're going to do this" tells me is it might not be the right thing to do. It tells me damn all about what the appropriate thing to do or say might be.

I usually do.

Quote from: JeremyR;804456The trouble with that is the player likely doesn't actually know what you expect. After all, not only don't they know the right etiquette, they can't read your mind to know what etiquette you expect, since you probably don't know the proper etiquette either, you just have an idea of what that etiquette is.

See above.

Immersion is harder in settings removed from our own, relatable cultural norms. Of course some leeway is necessary; not all players would know the intricacies of behavior at a High Medieval Western European court either.

My goal as a GM is to facilitate immersion in a fun manner. Navigating the surprises of an exotic culture is supposed to be part of the fun, too. This is best done from a newcomer/ignorant perspective, but if people want to play a samurai in Tokugawa Japan, who can blame them? Are you going to demand a syllabus on 16th-Century Japanese etiquette?

Letting your player roll a native and not giving him any pointers on his or her character's parent culture is a big ol' fuck you. I'm generally considered a hardass player skill GM at our group, and I think doing otherwise is bullshit.

Getting your players to immerse in an alien culture can be tricky, but very rewarding.

There is probably no "best way", as every way depends on the partocular system being used.

In RQ/BRP/Legend systems, you have a skill (Etiquette/Courtesy/Culture/whatever), which indicates your level of proficiency. Now, depending on the amount of skill, a PC might be expected to roughly know etiquette, know etiquette really well or know everything about etiquette. The GM might ask a beginner to roll at every possible chance of failure, but might only ask a master to roll when a challenging situation occurs.

I just assume that a relatively competent PC knows what to say/do without having to roll every time entering a throneroom.

Quote from: soltakss;804521There is probably no "best way", as every way depends on the partocular system being used.
- ... -
The GM might ask a beginner to roll at every possible chance of failure, but might only ask a master to roll when a challenging situation occurs.

I just assume that a relatively competent PC knows what to say/do without having to roll every time entering a throneroom.

So, the frequency of rolling is the indication of how good with etiquette a character is? The player doesn't have to study a syllabus just to play a character that is "a fish out of water"? I think that is effective, thanks.
=